Dumb and dumber all-in-one

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by James Sandefer on Jun. 13, 2012, under Politics

Jenigh Garrett is a self-professed radical DOJ Voting Section lawyer who just filed a lawsuit to halt Florida from eliminating non-citizens from the voter rolls. She’s been a career opponent of state election integrity laws, along with numerous recent hires exposed by the PJ Media Every Single One series. She seems to have no grip whatsoever on the meaning of illegal and actually seems to embrace the notion.

According to recent news reports Ms. Garrett worked for nearly five years as an assistant counsel at the NAACP Legal Defense and Education Fund (LDF) focusing on voting-related litigation. She co-drafted the NAACP LDF’s amicus brief in Crawford v. Marion County Board of Elections, claiming that voter ID laws are unconstitutional (the Supreme Court rejected it in an opinion by Justice John Paul Stevens). From her perspective, anyone should be able to show up at voting poll and cast a vote without any proof of citizenship. That’s absurd; people routinely have to present a driver’s license or valid photo ID when shopping in many retail stores with a credit card.

Garrett also was a member of the NAACP litigation team in Hayden v. Paterson, arguing that felon disenfranchisement laws violate the Voting Rights Act (the Second Circuit court rejected it). In her opinion, convicted felons should be able to vote along with law abiding citizens. Gosh, why not allow convicted felons, the pillars of society, to have the same right to partake of the political process as law abiding citizens.

She’s a member of the American Constitution Society and made a recent presentation at Yale Law School on “The Future of Black Legal Scholarship and Activism.” Interestingly, the DOJ’s FOIA office rebutted the other activities listed on her resume.

Hmm, I wonder if the next thing on her agenda will be mandating the establishment of a voting poll at all prisons on election days. What could possibly go wrong by putting the inmates in charge of the incarceration facility.

This entry was posted on Wednesday, June 13th, 2012 at 9:43 am and is filed under Politics. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

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tiponeill

Yes imagine how dumb a black lawyer has to be to want to make sure that black citizens could vote.

When WILL these people who aren’t old white men like us learn their place and just let us run the country the way we always have ?

James_Sandefer

Do you ever actually read the material before offering the same inaccurate, left-wing, rhetorical response? Here’s a reminder: She wants NON-CITIZENS, as in ILLEGALS, to have the same right to vote as legitimate United States citizens. Dude, grab a clue…

tiponeill

Of course I read it – even on the original racist blogs. The racist Repubs are trying everything they can to suppress the minority vote and she is trying to stop them. That doesn’t make HER dumb.

James_Sandefer

How is it racist to ensure that ALL voters are legal citizens? Would you expect to enter a country illegally and expect to have the same rights as those who lived there legally?

tiponeill

It isn’t. What is racist is to purge legal black citizens from the voting rolls, which is what Rick Scott is trying to do.

It’s also illegal this close to an election, which is why the “dumb” attorney is stopping him.

James_Sandefer

But take a look at her historical record–she’s been an avid legal advocate spouting “everyone should be able to vote regardless of their legality” for years, and she’s actively worked for organizations that had aggressive agendas for this sleazy ploy…

tiponeill

I don’t see upholding the Constitution as a “sleazy ploy”. I see trying to purge Florida’s voter rolls of black and minority citizens as a “sleazy ploy”.

Which would be perfectly in line with Florida’s “historical record” since it isn’t the first time they have tried this.

James_Sandefer

If you’re such a strong advocate of the Constitution, then why are you struggling with the meaning of the word “legal?”

tunkashila

And if you’re such a mental gymnast, how is it you struggle with the difference between “legal” and “illegal”
yourself? You speak of illegal immigrants, Tip speaks of citizens.

You may not like the color of their skin, much less the way they vote, but if they are non-felonious citizens, they have the right to stay on the voter rolls.

James_Sandefer

The bottom line is if they’re here illegally they don’t have the “right” to anything other than deportation. Why should those who come through the laborious immigration system “legally” be slapped in the face by allowing those who circumvented the system …

tiponeill

I’m not – why are you struggling with the word CITIZEN and why is Rick Scott so axious to prevent black CITIZENS from voting ?

BajaDemocrats

Just because you wrote something does not make it true, in fact often the opposite. The DOJ did NOT file suit against Florida to “halt Florida from eliminating non-citizens from the voter rolls”. They filed suite because 1) purging voter rolls within 90 days of federal election (FL primary) is prohibited by federal law. And 2) the data FL is using to question if a registered voter is seriously flawed. There are documented cases of US citizens – including even a WWII veteran - receiving notices that if they don’t request a hearing to prove they are a citizen they will be purged.

Every single county recorder in FL – Democrat & Republican – have now refused to implement the state’s purge list.

PS – I’m not calling you a liar, I’m just saying that you often use info from questionable sources without questioning or researching it.

James_Sandefer

I search for sources that offer information that’s backed up with verifiable specifics. Her lawsuit and virtually all of her previous lawsuits regarding voter issues involved demanding voting rights for people who couldn’t legitimately verify their citizenship. I’m not on board with allowing illegals to vote–that’s a right that was and should remain open only to legal citizens.

BajaDemocrats

Of course only US citizens have the right to vote. I had no problem bringing my birth certificate with me when I got my AZ Driver’s License and registered to vote when I moved here in 2005. And this is not about “illegals” – you can be living in the US legally and not be a citizen. Florida is using flawed, seriously out of date data from the DMV. There was a documented example of one FL resident receiving a “purge” notice. She was a non-citizen permanent resident when she got her FL driver’s license – 25 years ago. But she’s been a US citizen for over 20 years now, and legally voting in every election since.

And again federal law forbids and purging of voters within 90 days of a federal election and for good reason – those purges are often for political purposes. Rick Scott has been Gov. of FL for 1 1/2 years now – why wait until now if he suspected non-citizens were registered to vote in FL?

James_Sandefer

I agree; there’s currently no flawless system for at the polls for sorting out those who are legal and illegal, but we sure need something because voter fraud/multiple voting/etc. is becoming too commonplace around the country…

tunkashila

Vote fraud is indeed epidemic, but it is more often than not the pollsters themselves who perpetrate said fraud, not illegal immigrants. You should concern yourself with regulating their behavior if you’re truly worried about elections being honest.

James_Sandefer

Obama played another re-election card today by signing off on a “free pass” for illegals based on age, duration of time in the country, whether or not they took advantage of getting a free education, etc. Anything for a vote…

Your_Uncle_Karl

“…verifiable specifics.”

On that very notion, I am not aware of any verifiable information that voter fraud of any scale has been committed in FL or elsewhere, other than that committed by the Republican Party.

tunkashila

Then you missed the local Democratic party obstructing investigations into vote fraud in the 2006 elections as well as a Democratic Attorney General (Terry Goddard) who aided in the cover-up.

The GOP are also electoral pond scum, undeniably. But you really need to take off your partisan blinders and realize that both parties contribute to the problem.

James_Sandefer

I’ve been a registered Independent for over a decade, so there are no partisan blinders to remove. I’m totally on board with the notion that we need, desperately, a strong 3rd party to offset the burgeoning cronyism…

tunkashila

The partisan jibe was aimed at Uncle Karl, but let me ask why you push candidates from the GOP? (Haven’t seen you support any Democrats yet.) If you were “totally on board” with a third party, you would stop supporting the other ones and their candidates that created the problems in the first place.

Your_Uncle_Karl

You’re right on both counts. First, I am not aware of the investigations to which you refer. Secondly, though I am communist, I consider the democrats and liberals in general to be well-meaning, but deluded, whereas I consider reactionaries to be deranged and dangerous; their very philosophical bent being criminal and anti-human.

tunkashila

http://auditaz.blogspot.com/

Peruse the link and be enlightened.

James_Sandefer

I’m impressed–it’s only six weeks out of date…

tunkashila

What do you expect for a case between rulings that’s been going on for over five years? I notice you’re unable to refute anything on the page, however fresh it might be.

James_Sandefer

Legal or illegal–that’s the issue here. For some reason this issue habitually becomes clouded by a myriad of non-related arguments, but it should be rather straightforward. Interestingly, people here illegally have been further characterized/evaluated by whether or not they’ve done certain things such as, attended school, been arrested for committing a crime, etc. The fact is they committed a crime when they chose to cross the border illegally; that’s not a gray area. If you illegally cross the border into another country you know what’s gonna happen–you’ll be arrested and most likely incarcerated for an indefinite period of time–you don’t have any “rights” and will be fortunate if you’re merely released and allowed to return to your country of origin. They understand the meaning of the word “illegal” and it isn’t complex…

Your_Uncle_Karl

If an adult brings a five year old child along on a bank robbery, has that same child done something “illegal”? The people affected by yesterday’s announcement did not “choose to cross the border illegally”. The criminal justice system is not, nor should it be, ’black and white’. Mitigating and aggravating factors are always considered.
tunkashila

You really hate the Constitution, don’t you?

Any basic scholar of the document understands that the Constitution does not grant rights, it enumerates them, i.e. lists them. If this is the case, then it follows that all human beings share these rights, regardless of national origin. One of these rights is the right to travel freely, others include the right to be left alone by the police unless an actual crime has occurred. This meant, before the advent of administrative law, that there was an actual, injured party to bring a case, which is why illegal immigration is considered a misdemeanor and not a felony since the state can demonstrate no clear injury from it.

In any case, it is clear you have no understanding of the situation beyond the “illegal means illegal” buzzphrase cooked up to justify voter suppression and that the Constitution you claim to revere so much is, in the words of the former commander-in-chief you supported so fervently, “just a goddamned piece of paper”.

James_Sandefer

No, what’s clear is that you have your personal interpretation of the Constitution and anyone who isn’t locked into your significantly out-of-focus view of it is wrong. This is typical thinking by the radical left-wing faction and a huge part of the ongoing deterioration of our societal values.
You make assumptions regarding my interpretations and views on the subject and attempt to attack and discredit them with your rhetorical verbiage. The word illegal has a clear meaning, and you continue struggling to embrace it because it isn’t within you limited framework of how things should work in the real world.
You also make false, unfounded assumptions regarding my voting preferences–face it, you’re a close minded, radical liberal who doesn’t intend to be confused with the facts…

tunkashila

It’s hardly my interpretation. http://www.bluecarp.com/2012/01/us-constitution-applies-to-citizens-and.html

Apply whatever labels you like to me; you’ve still been reduced to calling names and throwing out baseless charges, meaning you lost the argument long ago.

I have made no assumptions, merely followed your blog posts and used your own prejudices against you. You still haven’t explained why, as a supposed independent, you continue to exclusively support GOP candidates. You haven’t explained away the non immigrant-based vote fraud here and around the nation and you are incapable of admitting that the argument in FL and other places is about purging LEGAL CITIZENS from the voter lists, not IMMIGRANTS. Until you do, your outrage remains nothing more than ill-informed bluster.

James_Sandefer

I have made no baseless charges–you provided free ammo by referring to my registered Independent status for over a decade as being “supposed.” You also stated that I exclusively support GOP candidates–totally bogus and another freebie example of your clueless bias. How could possibly know how I vote? Exactly–you don’t have a clue.
I support candidates offering values that may prove to be worthwhile for their constituents if they actually stick with them once they’re in office. Unfortunately, far too many get amnesia the morning after being elected and this further supports the need for term limits.
As for my position regarding voter fraud, my contention that illegals should not be allowed to vote and all voters should be registered remains intact. If you want to allow whomever manages to sneak over the border then good for you, but I’ll stand my ground on this critical element of freedom for legal citizens.

tunkashila

You’re right, I don’t know how you have voted over the past decade, only the political alignment of every candidate you have supported thus far in your blog. Which all happen to be Republicans. Coincidence? I think not. Furthermore, your charge that I am a liberal is so far off base as to be laughable. Finally, your original contention that Jenigh Garrett “filed a lawsuit to halt Florida from eliminating non-citizens from the voter rolls” has been disproven at least a half-dozen times by three different posters in a variety of ways. Baseless is precisely the word to use for it. Evidently, she doesn’t share “…your personal interpretation of the Constitution and anyone who isn’t locked into your significantly out-of-focus view of it is wrong”. I think I’ve heard that somewhere before, but no matter…

You support candidates who mouth your slogans and catchphrases without looking through their past and weeding out the hypocrites, it seems. Were you and other voters better judges of character, there would be no need for term limits. Ron Paul has been in Congress for the better part of the last 40 years and still hasn’t abandoned his values. An exception to the rule, to be sure, but indicative of others in the body politic with the same qualities.

Finally, if you were really standing your ground for legal citizens, you would oppose the Florida measure for the race-based political abomination that it is, as it affects no illegal immigrants and instead strikes legal citizens (including WWII veterans) from the rolls. ‘Nuff said, this horse is dead enough.

James_Sandefer

If you’re not a liberal then you’re sure missing your calling.
I’ll gladly debate you on the Constitution, and I can bring my copy to show you what it looks like.
If you aren’t a supporter of term limits then you must be pleased with the system as it’s being run–off the cliff with an endless list of freebies for illegals and freeloaders. The occupiers are an ideal example of a bunch of liberal minded, societal misfits who want something for nothing, demand free food and a place to sleep, and trash the environment while attempting to discredit those who run legitimate businesses, pay their taxes, etc.
And yes, I would like to see a voter ID program that legitimately confirms the voting eligibility of every legal American citizen wishing to cast a vote, and I don’t know how to convey this reasonable ideology any clearer for you. If you’re happy with career politicians then good for you, there’s nothing you should be whining about…
tunkashila

Our copies are the same-it’s the levels of reading comprehension that vary. Once you learn the basic meaning of words like “citizen” and “unalienable”, I’ll debate you in the forum of your choice. Would you like a dictionary to speed up the process?

I’m not a supporter of term limits because they are a bad idea. Just because the voters are too stupid/apathetic to exercise their franchise and/or demand non-fraudulent elections is no reason to limit the terms of politicians who are actually good at their jobs. In the words of Joseph de Maistre, “People will always elect the government they deserve”.

I have no issues with a legitimate voter ID program, but that isn’t what you’re supporting in your column. You want a witchhunt against an ideological foe who opposes a plan that illegally strips citizens of their right to vote, which you contort to characterize as “illegals being able to vote”. A turd by any other name…
James_Sandefer

Careful what you wish for–I’ll select the moderator.
If you happened to see tonight’s edition of 60 Minutes, then you heard a report about the sleazy politicians in both parties, and this reaffirms the need for term limits. It’s common for people to say, “We need to get rid of those other politicians, mine is doing a great job…”
tunkashila

Yes, but insulating fools from the consequences of their actions teaches them nothing. If voters are content to keep on electing the same thieves or allowing them to steal elections, they deserve whatever happens to them and so does the nation at large.

P.S. – If you’re getting to select the forum, then I get to pick the moderator. Either that or we each put three different names in a hat and pick one at random.
James_Sandefer

You’ve contradicted yourself regarding term limits and also forgotten that I’m picking the moderator.

indy56

And speaking of questionable sources, what is your support for the phrase the data FL is using to question if a registered voter is seriously flawed.

http://freeandequalpa.wordpress.com/ freeandequalpa

“She co-drafted the NAACP LDF’s amicus brief in Crawford v. Marion County Board of Elections, claiming that voter ID laws are unconstitutional (the Supreme Court rejected it in an opinion by Justice John Paul Stevens).”

That is an overstatement of the holding in the Crawford case. The Court did not hold that photo ID laws are per se Constitutional, but rather held that the plaintiffs who challenged the Indiana photo ID law had not come forward with enough evidence to show that the law violated the 14th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. Justice Scalia highlighted that in his concurring opinion: “The lead opinion assumes petitioners’ premise that the voter-identification law ‘may have imposed a special burden on’ some voters, but holds that petitioners have not assembled evidence to show that the special burden is severe enough to warrant strict scrutiny.” So if different plaintiffs came forward with solid evidence on the burden issue in some future case, the Court could easily reach the opposite conclusion.

You can read some additional analysis here:
http://freeandequalpa.wordpress.com/2012/05/15/reaction-to-intervenors-preliminary-objections-part-ii-isnt-it-a-bit-early-for-crawford/

James_Sandefer

It still appears that the outcome was based on the basic definition of legal versus illegal citizens.
People are routinely asked for a photo ID when using a credit card, so I can’t see any reason the same requirement shouldn’t apply to one of the most significant rights we have a American citizens–voting for the people who will be at the helm of government at all levels. I don’t want an illegal casting a vote, they haven’t earned this right and surely don’t deserve it.

Fraser007

Its all part of a plan. Illegals get to vote, “immigration reform” for a system that is not broke (they just dont want to enforce the existing laws), Not enough Border Patrol available. With the illegal birth rate we will be outnumbered in 30 years. Thats a country that I am glad I will not be alive to see. But my kids will and I cry for them. Let’s see if we would ever get to the moon with that crew in charge. Or defeat Communism or any other important issue that will crop up in the future. Someone like a future Hitler or Stalin or Islamic terrorism will have an easy time with Paco the Vato in charge.

James_Sandefer

It’s a sad state of affairs when we wake up every morning and wonder, as we’re turning on the early news, what they’ve done “to us” overnight. Even worse, it’s becoming apparent that the current controllers in Washington don’t hold the Constitution in particularly high regard, but rather as somewhat of a nuisance that has to be worked around…

tunkashila

Wow…just like the last ones. Scary, isn’t it?

http://freeandequalpa.wordpress.com/ freeandequalpa

“I don’t want an illegal casting a vote, they haven’t earned this right and surely don’t deserve it.”

I do not disagree with this, but note that in Arizona (as in most states) non-citizens can obtain drivers’ licenses:

http://mvd.azdot.gov/mvd/formsandpub/mvd.asp?txtNumber=96-0155

So laws that require voters to show photo ID at the polls will not prevent non-citizens from voting. If we want to solve the problem you raise, our time would be better spent making sure non-citizens are not permitted to register to vote, rather than requiring voters to show photo ID at the polls.

James_Sandefer

When I’m asked to show a photo ID when using my credit card to make a purchase in a growing number of retails establishments, then it surely seems appropriate to have a functional system to verify that voters are legal citizens prior to allowing them to enter the voting booth.

http://freeandequalpa.wordpress.com/ freeandequalpa

The only photo ID that I can think of that would prove citizenship is a passport. But requiring all voters to show a passport when they vote does not seem like a workable solution because more than half of the country does not have one:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/09/post_662_n_833399.html

James_Sandefer

At some point there will surely be a relatively reliable system of ID confirmation at the voting polls, an no, I don’t have “the” answer either. But simply allowing anyone who walks into a voting precinct to stroll into the booth and mark a ballot isn’t gonna hack it much longer because it’s becoming too commonplace for people to be compensated in various ways to “make the rounds” voting for particular candidates multiple times.

tunkashila

Politicians don’t need to pay off immigrants to vote multiple times anymore, they simply pay off the election officials with access to the IT infrastructure (like Brad Roach here in Pima County) to play with the vote totals to get the results they desire.

Ask yourself which is cheaper and/or easier; paying off a few hundred (or thousand) people every election or buying a crop scanner once?

http://www.facebook.com/LuckyInvestigations Jered Morgan

You do realize that just because the merchant is asking for your ID doesn’t mean you have to show it or that it’s required right?

http://www.mastercard.us/support/merchant-violations.html

http://www.youtube.com/thelucky225

Your argument is baseless and irrelevant. Furthermore, just because everyone speeds on the freeway, should we encourage the government to do so too? That’s basically where you’re going with this argument, considering retailers CAN NOT require photo ID on credit card, yet the fact that they violate their agreements and ask anyhow is your basis for asking the government to violate the rights of voters.

James_Sandefer

Tell the merchants–right or wrong, if a customer is standing in line attempting to make a purchase and then go home, the last thing they’re likely to do is get into a pissing contest with the cashier. They’ll most likely simply flip open their wallet, produce a photo ID, sign the charge receipt and be on their way. Like it or not, legal or not, this is the current state of affairs in a growing number of retail establishments in the real world…therefore my argument is totally relevant and based on actual personal experience.
I didn’t say I liked doing it…
http://www.facebook.com/LuckyInvestigations Jered Morgan

James, it’s not relevant, because 1) you CAN refuse to produce ID for a CC purchase as evidenced by MasterCard’s Merchant Rules, my videos documenting my success, and I have also forced merchants to comply with the rules by filing reports with MasterCard and their Corporate Headquarters to the point they have stopped the practice altogether in my locale, and furthermore just because someone complies with something doesn’t make it a requirement or legal (i.e. a growing number of merchants request your SSN to obtain an account with them, most people just give it and don’t even realize the merchant has policies allowing you to open an account without SSN) All it takes is a challenge. Furthermore merchant/retail business is NOT a RIGHT, it’s a privilege and convenience. Voting is a right. Your argument about illegals is non-sense. Illegals do not have birth certificates, they don’t have SSNs, they don’t have many other documents that prove citizenship, but they DO have IDs and Driver Licenses as many states simply have lax requirements, therefore an ID does not prove the elements of eligibility to vote. Furthermore your argument is a fallacy if you want to focus on the fact that an illegal *MIGHT* register to vote, that is like saying criminals have guns, so we should regulate and ban guns, something that is a right secured by the 2nd amendment. When you regulate and ban weapons, ILLEGALS(i.e. CRIMINALS) continue to possess those banned weapons because guess what, they’re CRIMINALS. The same is true of illegal aliens, they forge documents, use them to obtain driver license and IDs, meanwhile eligible LEGAL individuals are prevented from voting because they don’t have the funds and transportation necessary to produce their true documents. We should not be making the right to vote harder just because a few illegals MIGHT get a voter card, we should instead focus on prosecuting and deporting illegals in the first place so that they are not there to commit that act to begin with.

James_Sandefer

I totally agree–and that’s been my contention all along; if they’re here illegal they need to be deported. But it appears that since it’s an election year the recent presidential circumvention of the deportation of “special illegals” merely kicks the problem down the road…

Dutchie19

I agree. Should illegal aliens be able to vote, and yes I call them
illegal “aliens” not “undocumented immigrants” since my green card referred to
me as a “legal alien.” Should anyone
that would like to vote, not earned the right I might add, be able to vote NO since it IS a right when you are a citizen. I am a naturalized citizen and it is a slap
in the face to me and most legal immigrants who abide by the law of this country,
including entering the United States
legally.

I was subjected to medical testing, interviews, written, language
and history/government proficiency to be able to become a citizen, and yes this
was my choice, but with that I also earned to right to vote. If you ask me, to be able to vote people
should have to show a passport, as citizens in my birth country do. I would advise people who think it is okay to
give anyone the right to vote to attend a naturalization ceremony were you can
experience how truly important this issue is to people like me.

James_Sandefer

Thank you for offering some insightful, firsthand experiences about your naturalization process and reaffirmation that those allowed to vote should be verified legal citizens.
I have no problem showing documentation of legal citizenship when going to a vote. What the heck, if they need a photo ID to process a credit card transaction, then it would surely seem like a reasonable requirement for voters to produce one. And given the fact that we vote so infrequently, there’s ample time for anyone here legally to get the necessary documentation.

http://www.facebook.com/LuckyInvestigations Jered Morgan

They don’t need photo ID to process a credit card transaction.
http://www.mastercard.us/support/merchant-violations.html

http://www.youtube.com/thelucky225

Your argument has no merit and is baseless anyhow, credit card transactions are a convenient privilege, not a right, such as voting. Requiring photo ID to vote amounts to a poll tax and disenfranchises the poor who have neither ID nor credit cards. The poor, who have the right to vote, do not need an ID to vote. Furthermore, the same documents and information required for a driver license or ID could easily be presented to a voter office in lieu of an ID. The requirement of ID to register to vote sort of nullifies the whole reason of having a voter registration card and voter registration office in the first place.

http://www.facebook.com/LuckyInvestigations Jered Morgan

Using a credit card is not a right but a privilege, however, a merchant’s requirement for photo ID is a direct violation of their own merchant agreement, not relevant , and not even close to a valid argument since the request on the merchant’s part was never valid to begin with as merchants are prohibited by the very contracts they sign to accept credit cards from requiring photo ID. Merchants who require ID can be reported at
http://www.mastercard.us/support/merchant-violations.html by checking the box “The merchant/retailer required identification.” http://www.youtube.com/thelucky225 — I never show my photo ID when requested and yet somehow I’m still able to use my card, therefore your argument fails on all points, and even if it didn’t would still fail for the very reason that voting is a right, purchasing is not.

Your_Uncle_Karl

I believe another germane issue that has not been raised here is that, Florida, like several other states (including Arizona), has been required since the passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1965 to submit all proposed changes to voting laws to the DOJ for scrutiny and approval. This, because of a long prior history of voter suppression aimed at minorities. Having failed to convince the courts that they have reformed, they have decided to go ahead and do what they want anyway, and this is a part of why they are being sued by the DOJ.

James_Sandefer

As if Holder is a straight up kind of operator with no hidden agenda…

tiponeill

>”
And yes, I would like to see a voter ID program that legitimately confirms the voting eligibility of every legal American citizen wishing to cast a vote,”

Personally I think a national ID card would probably be a good idea too. Privacy advocates like the ACLU don’t think so though and most of the opposition to it comes from conservatives like Ron Paul and the Confederate states (like Arizona) because they are afraid of Big Government and black helicopters coming for them.

I thought you were one of them ?

http://www.ronpaul.com/on-the-issues/civil-liberties/national-id-card/

http://endoftheamericandream.com/archives/a-national-id-card-for-american-citizens-get-ready-the-real-id-act-goes-into-effect-on-may-11

http://epic.org/privacy/id_cards/

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/03/26/opinion/frum-identity-cards/index.html
indy56

Anyone can write a blog, and thus no credibility should be given
indy56

Oh ya and the DOJ is credible, that is why Holder is looking at contempt charges.

Your_Uncle_Karl

Sorry, Indy, but you make too much of what is just political posturing. Yes, the House voted to hold Holder in contempt. And…the paperwork will go to a Democratic Prosecutor who will let it die. Everyone knows this, including the House Republicans.

indy56

Back at ya Uncle I think you missed my point and it is exactly what you say. These people are so ingrained in their political ideology that they will do and say anything. It is just a shame that citizens die when fools such as those we have in office play stupid games

Your_Uncle_Karl

You are correct; it went right over my head. I hope against hope not everyone missed it.

tunkashila

“You’ve contradicted yourself regarding term limits and also forgotten that I’m picking the moderator.”

I see no contradiction in what I’ve written thus far and again, if you’re picking the debate’s forum then I’m picking the moderator or we’re doing a hat draw with three names from both sides to choose one. Why do you need to pick both the forum and the moderator-scare easily?

indy56

I thought
for sure you would have gotten what Dutchie had to say. Voting is a right not a privilege; a right
that must be earned. Your position seems
to be that if a person can make it into our country they should be able to
vote. Just to demonstrate how stupid an
idea this is please take the following into consideration. You illegally enter ANY country (other than
the US of course) and tell the government not only do you expect everything you
need for free, you should also be able to vote to make sure your stream of “free
stuff” is never ending. The aforementioned makes a lot of sense right!? The
reality of the situation is, after they stopped laughing in your face and
telling you what a fool you are they might allow you to leave rather than
locking your carcass up. Needless to say
most countries I have been in have a different take on “due process” one I am
sure you would not like. That having
been said I invite you to leave Tucson and perhaps mom and dads house and
go see how the world really works. People who are in this country illegally even
if mommy and daddy brought them here do not have the right to vote until they
go through the process to become a citizen.
I refer back to Dutchie’s comment and ask you to ask a new citizen why
it was so important to become an American citizen. Now after you have asked the aforementioned question,
please jump on the first plane out to any destination of your choice, enter
illegally and see how you are welcomed, I guarantee it will not be with a ballot
for the upcoming election.

tunkashila

You apparently suffer from the same lack of reading comprehension that both Dutchie and Mr. Sandefer do-the argument is not about allowing illegal immigrants to vote but rather purging LEGAL CITIZENS from the voter lists. All the rest of your post is a similarly ill-informed rant filled with assumptions and attempted insults, none of which bear any resemblance to reality. (And look, I didn’t even have to call you any names!

As for any questions asked, I asked them here, not in another country-once you answer them, I might consider leaving, but not before. I suspect I won’t be contacting my travel agent anytime soon.
James_Sandefer

Wow! You actually have a clear comprehension of the meaning of the word illegal.
Of course, this tunkashila character couldn’t give a rip less about your straightforward explanation and will likely attempt to slap you with some rhetorical garble that’s meaningless and so far slanted to the left that it might fall off the page.
And then he’ll label you as a radical, right-wing Republican even though he doesn’t have a clue about your political affiliation any more than I have at the moment.
From your comments it sounds to me as if you’d make a good Independent, but that’s just a guess on my part…

James_Sandefer

The odds of me being remotely scared by the likes of you is unthinkable…and you might want to get a tight grip on your dictionary.

tunkashila

Ok, so prove it-agree to the terms of the debate (you get the pick of forum and I get the moderator or we do a random pick in both cases for fairness’ sake) or admit it was just a rhetorical bluff. Either way, my dictionary and I await.

James_Sandefer

OK, how about a VA facility, and you can pick the moderator from the myriad of my fellow vets sitting in the various waiting areas. Keep digging genius…

tunkashila

You’re the one digging and the hole’s only getting deeper, as your constant refusals to agree to a level playing field vividly illustrate. Are you honestly so insecure in your positions, Constitutional or otherwise, that you must demand a stacked deck every time you make a desperate gamble?

You know what? I’ve reconsidered my position…as long as I can invite the local chapter of OathKeepers, I’ll be happy to meet you at the Tucson VA and even arrange to have the debate Netcast for any interested parties to tune in and watch. We can stroke our egos and call it the Baja Arizona Constitutional Convention or whatever other moniker you want to attach and pretend like it actually makes a difference in the grand scheme of things. Whatever we call it, it would undoubtedly be fun and maybe even informative. The ball’s in your court, sir.

James_Sandefer

Let’s make it convenient and play it on the level field you desire; how about simply offering your solution to the voter fraud issue–how would you fix it?

tunkashila

“Let’s make it convenient and play it on the level field you desire; how about simply offering your solution to the voter fraud issue–how would you fix it?”

Pardon the fresh thread, but there was no “reply” button available underneath your comment for some reason. In any case, my solution to the voter fraud issue would be threefold: first, you get the fingerprints/biometric information for all registered voters and install print scanners at every polling place. The voter shows up, gets their fingerprint scan, which will then enable a ballot to be printed for them to fill out once the database verifies the scan. After completing the ballot, it is returned to the poll watchers and inserted into the scanner, which tallies the ballot and gives a certified printout to the voter affirming their choices after double-checking it and getting approval from the voter that their selections are correct. I believe this not only passes Constitutional muster, it ensures that all voters are citizens and the printouts give a verifiable backup should a recount be necessary. Your thoughts?

BTW, couldn’t you have just asked that in the first place instead of making a bet you didn’t have the stones to back up once your bluff was called? Just saying…

James_Sandefer

You were doing so well, offering an insightful solution to the problem of voter fraud, and then you blew it with your abusive final comment.
I merely opted to take the positive position of offering you another opportunity to explain your solution to the issue, something you could have done right up front instead of incessantly attacking and incorrectly labeling me as a right-wing Republican.
You called your own bluff…just saying.

tunkashila

Whatever makes you feel better, Jim. See you on the blogs!

http://www.facebook.com/LuckyInvestigations Jered Morgan

First, Photo ID is *NOT* required when paying with a credit card see my videos at youtube.com/thelucky225 and google mastercard merchant violation for information on why a merchant can’t refuse to complete a transaction for failure of a customer to show photo ID when presenting a valid, signed card. Secondly, even if photo ID was required for a credit card, when clearly it’s not, it is not relevant to the fact that VOTING is a RIGHT, purchasing with something other then cash is a privilege.

James_Sandefer

Agreed–as I have done from the start, that voting is a right. But illegals don’t have that right, hence the illegal aspect of their being here…
tunkashila

You’re absolutely correct in all your particulars, Jered, but if you’ve been following the comments here you can see that Mr. Sandefer has been consistently unable to understand or admit that the issue is about purging legal citizens from the voting rolls, not illegal aliens.

Even after somebody pointed out that illegal aliens can legally acquire photo IDs here, negating his argument entirely, he still insists that’s the solution. And even after what he admits was “..an insightful solution to the problem of voter fraud” got posted, he still chose to dismiss it because his feelings got hurt when I pointed out his cowardice in backing out of a debate HE proposed at the end of the post. You might as well try arguing with a puppy not to urinate on trees. Good luck and thanks for fighting the good fight!

James_Sandefer

I’ve been hospitable to you, but you continue insulting me and you crossed the line when referring to me as cowardly.
If that’s your best effort to support your position on the issue, then I feel sorry for you.

tunkashila

Oh, so welshing on a bet is now an act of hospitality? LOL I called your backing out of the debate you proposed a cowardly act because it is indeed the act of a coward. But since you have no answer for my efforts, I’ll be willing to cut you some slack and admit that it’s probably an act of expediency, too. You feeling sorry for me is akin to a Calcutta mendicant feeling sorry for Bill Gates.

James_Sandefer

I don’t have a MasterCard, so that’s a non-issue for me. But anyone causing a scene about having to produce an ID in a grocery store line, for example, would likely regret it when the lineup of customers waiting impatiently to check out insisted that he/she get out of line and go to the Customer Service counter to resolve the issue.
Have you tried to enter a federal building lately? Guess what–a photo ID is required or you’re not getting in–period. Cause a scene there and you’ll have a good chance of getting free room and board overnight at the local jail.
If you’re entering a military base you must produce your military ID that has your photo on it, or some other form of military approved type of photo ID in order to obtain a pass for the day–no exceptions.
Producing your MasterCard won’t suffice in the two aforementioned instances.

http://www.facebook.com/LuckyInvestigations Jered Morgan

All not relevant, evidently you haven’t watched my videos yet, I am never asked to get out of line, and always win the argument, ultimately the merchant would rather “take my money stupid” then hold up a line on a baseless policy that violates their own terms of their merchant agreement. First, all cards have a non-discrimination rule which effectively means ALL valid signed major credit cards must be accepted without photo ID, Visa also advises that merchants can request but not require. All Credit Cards state “NOT VALID UNLESS SIGNED”, some do NOT have names embossed whatsoever(prepaid cards), it makes more sense to follow the rules, ensure the card is SIGNED and valid, and compare the signature then to rely on a photo ID that could be fake or just let ANYONE use a prepaid credit card, when they could easily deter this by checking the damn signature in the first place. I could care less about impatient customers or an impatient cashier, unlike you I don’t go along to get along, if they want to try to condition me to do something that’s not required, I can and will fight back and condition them to follow the rules they agreed to in the first place. What does making a purchase have to do with voting, and what does entering a federal building or military base have to do with either of these topics? Not a damn thing. You make irrelevant arguments to support irrelevant arguments.

James_Sandefer

Valid Identification–

Your_Uncle_Karl

Jim, I have two points to make: First, whether you are aware of it or not, and however you are identify for voting purposes, you are very conservative. Secondly, you do have a talent for writing articles that stimulate a lot of heated discussion. I believe that is what you are (un)paid to do, correct?

indy56

Jared you are sadly mistaken as I receive credit cards at work that require that I ask for photo ID; perhaps this is an indivdual thing however… Other locations that you must show a photo ID include but are not limited to entrance into the DNCC/RNCC any place that serves alcohol, to get a hotel room, cash a check and the list goes on and on. So now if the deal is that Florida is purging their records and a legal citizen is bounced off the list here is what we do. We put on our big boy pants, go down to the County Clerk and Recorders office and get the problem solved. The issue is people voting that are NOT authorized to vote due to their legal status. Get over it, be a patriot, or LEAVE!

http://www.facebook.com/LuckyInvestigations Jered Morgan

Just because your place of employment VIOLATES THE MERCHANT AGREEMENT THAT THEY SIGNED IN THE FIRST PLACE TO ACCEPT CREDIT CARDS and then trained you to violate that agreement does not mean I am wrong. If I entered your establishment and you refused to accept my credit card without ID and I was not purchasing an age restricted product I would report you using MasterCard’s Merchant Violation form at www.mastercard.us/support/merchant-violations.html and checking the box ”
The merchant/retailer required identification. ”
In order to ACCEPT MasterCards, which is a privilege, not a right, ALL MasterCard merchants must first agree to abide by MasterCard’s rules, which clearly state as a MasterCard merchant you MAY NOT REFUSE to accept a valid signed credit card solely because a customer refuses to provide additional identification. Be a patriot? I am a patriot, I don’t put up with bullshit nazi tactics such as those your employer uses and tries to impose in direct violation of their merchant agreement.

indy56

READ WHAT I SAID. I said this may be and individual thing
and SOME individuals MAY request that you
ask them for photo ID. Should this be your choice you write “please check ID” next
to your signature on the back of the card. I did not say this was a mandatory
requirement being shoved down your throat, this comes from the Privacy Rights
Clearing House and though this sites focus is mainly California
they do reference national laws as well. “If you want merchants to ask for your ID,
sign your card and write “Ask for ID” below your signature. Be aware, however,
that merchants are not bound to honor that instruction. If you do not want to
show ID, simply sign your card and refuse to provide ID if asked.” Your problem
is that you stated a universal policy is in place WHICH THERE IS NOT!! An
individual still has choices, remember that is what our society is based on,
personal choice and laws. By the way do you even have a job that requires you
to handle credit cards?

http://www.facebook.com/LuckyInvestigations Jered Morgan

You pretty much just proved my point. ”
Be aware, however,that merchants are NOT bound to honor that instruction.” refers to if YOU write Ask For ID below your signature. Ask For ID is not a valid signature, cards are not valid unless signed, thus Privacy Clearing House is suggesting if it makes you feel warm & fuzzy you can write that next to your signature, but it doesn’t make a damn difference because the merchant isn’t required to ask you for ID, nor are you required to show one. Writing such a stupid instruction on a card does not prevent internet purchases, gas pumps, self check out, etc. and is utterly silly. Yes you have the choice to be an idiot and think merchants require it or that you can ask a merchant to, just like merchants seem to think they CAN require it or that they can ask me to when I use my own card, but it doesn’t make it any more right or wrong.

As far as Universal policy;
http://www.mastercard.com/us/merchant/pdf/BM-Entire_Manual_public.pdf

5.8.4 Additional Cardholder IdentiicationA Merchant must not refuse to complete a Transaction solely because a Cardholder who has complied with the conditions for presentment of a Card at the POI refuses to provide additional identification

5.11.1 Discrimination

A Merchant must not engage in any acceptance practice that discriminates against or discourages the use of a Card in favor of any other acceptance brand

indy56

I proved nothing more than you are a fool that likes to make blanket statements

http://www.facebook.com/LuckyInvestigations Jered Morgan

I’m not the one making blanket statements about how ID is required everywhere else(when in all actuality it isn’t) and that we’re already conditioned to such so we should just shut up and take it and not care when Voter ID comes along to infringe on your rights further that you should just be used to it already and go along to get along.

indy56

OH and the New Black Panther Party, ACORN or the rest have never done anything wrong. Come on both sides play this game
James Sandefer

I and my friends have experienced an almost across-the-board initiative by retailers to ask for a photo ID when making credit card purchases, and the amount of the purchase often seems to be the determining factor. I hadn’t considered it from a legal standpoint, merely a safety/security mechanism for both the retailer and me. I don’t have a problem with it given the rampant incidents of identity theft these days. And I don’t have a problem validating my identity in order to vote. While voting is a right, it’s significant to note that it’s a right for those who are legally here, not people who have entered the country illegally.

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