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Is it important for America to be liked? If so, why?

by on Jan. 01, 2010, under Uncategorized

Why do America’s elite liberals crave the world’s approval so desperately?

During his recent trip to Asia, President Obama sat for an interview with CNN’s Ed Henry. In the interview, President Obama took credit for “restoring America’s standing in the world.” On April 26th of this year, journalist Fareed Zakharia commended President Obama for beginning “a process of reaching out to the world and changing America’s image.” We are now liked much more overseas, it seems.

OK…so what?  Why is that so important?

If you travel overseas frequently, or crave acceptance in the “right” circles in Davos or the Hamptons or Hollywood, I suppose it’s useful. But, if you’re not a MSM reporter or a college student trying to curry favor with your hostelmates as you backpack across Europe, what’s the practical value of being liked? What’s the payoff for America?

IMO, it’s limited. At best.

Most developed nations are militarily weak. When it comes to projecting military forces overseas, to the places in the world where real threats are, they’re virtually impotent. When the Germans first sent peacekeepers to Afghanistan, they had to contract with Ukraine for aircraft to get them there. The British Navy, who kept the world’s seas safe in the 19th century, is in the process of cutting its fleet so drastically that it might not be a “blue water” navy (i.e., one that’s capable of sustained operations far from its own shores) much longer. What good is it, then, to build good will with/curry the favor of nations who can’t contribute meaningfully when the time comes?

Many developed nations—i.e., those nations capable of building and maintaining effective modern armies—also lack the will to fight. (Notice that I said “many,” not “all.” Some nations are good warfighting partners for the U.S. The Poles, Danes, British and Canadians come readily to mind. Unfortunately, those nations are the exception, rather than the rule).

Recently, in my role as a slimy defense contractor, I attended an Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV) video training class. The instructor had been a UAV operator in Afghanistan, where he worked with French coalition forces. Military forces, mind you. Apparently, the French were willing to cooperate with the American UAV operators…but when they found out that the Americans planned to attack the people the UAV was watching, they objected to being involved in any activity that might result in someone actually getting hurt. (Once again, these were French soldiers).

Did these folks think they were on a National Geographic expedition? Other nations’ militaries and governments often shy away from real combat missions. They seem to prefer less-dangerous peacekeeping missions, where people use guns seldom or never.

Do these sound like good warfighting partners to you? If not, then why curry their favor.

Anyway, those are my thoughts—what are yours? What’s the value of having America be liked? What’s the real value, the tangible benefit, of having good standing in the rest of the world?

Happy New Year!


  • leftfield

    Welcome back, Don.

    The thrust of your argument revolves around military force.  Are there not other issues where “being liked” (or at least not being despised) is of benefit?  Trade, cultural exchange and perhaps even the avoidance of conflict in the first place come immediately to mind.  You seem to be arguing the case for isolationism, or at least that our relations with other nations be based on coercion rather than cooperation.   

    Other questions – are there any other varieties of liberal other than the “Elite Liberal” type?  Is this the same as an “Ivory Tower Liberal” or an “Ivy League Liberal”?  Are there any “Everyday, Joe Six-Pack Liberals”?  If so, does this variety of liberal also crave world approval?  More importantly, do they restrict themselves to designer beers from microbreweries, or eschew beer altogether in favor of wine?  Where do they stand on escargot and smelly French cheeses?  How would I recognize an “Elite Liberal” if I saw one?  Is there a secret handshake? 

    • Don Smith

      Left, good to be back.

      I confined my examples to military/security ones, because I’m more versed in those topics.  As for economic and humanitarian cooperation by other nations—-gosh, I’d hope that wouldn’t be based on how much (or little) those nations liked the United States.  If people in Iraq or Afghanistan or elsewhere need help, isn’t that enough?  If other nations are willing to let innocent people starve and suffer unless the USA says “pretty please,” well, IMO, that doesn’t say much about those other nations, does it.

      As to “elite liberals,” the blue-collar liberals I know—and I do know a few—-don’t seem as concerned with world opinion as do their liberal counterparts in big, coastal cities and universities.  I really do think there’s an intense craving amongst “elite” liberals to win international, especially European, favor.   Frankly, I don’t get that:  with the euro exchange rate being what it is today, who has money to travel overseas?
      Left, you’re a regular commenter on these boards—what tangible value, if any, do you see if America enhances its international image?  More aid?  More troops for internationally-approved operations like Afghanistan?

      • Don Smith

        How would you recognize an “elite liberal” if you saw one?  Go to most any university humanities or social sciences department, look at the pictures of the faculty and take your pick.  If no college is nearby, try the newsrooms of most any newspaper.

      • leftfield

        Because we have such a disparate POV on the world it is difficult to answer the question of tangible value.  Since you italicized the word, I  assume that when you say “tangible” you mean from your POV.  Realize that in my POV, what is of tangible value is going to be markedly different from what is of tangible value to you.  For example, do you find tangible value in a world-wide socialist revolution?  I doubt it.

        I guess one example that we both might agree on is the reduction of conflict between nations.  Even so, in my POV, imperialism is the root cause of most conflict in the world historically (this can also be thought of as access to resources) and, as your good friend V.I. Lenin opined, mature and advanced capitalism necessarily leads to imperialism. 

        Back to another question that has vexed me: Are there any “Elite Conservatives”?

  • Jonathan DuHamel

    The craving for approval might be the need for confirmation of a world view by people who are ultimately insecure. It’s the need to be politically correct, to be above the perceived base motivations of the common people. It is the need for reaffirmation that they are the ones anointed with the truth.

    • leftfield

      How does the argument that liberals are insecure fit in with the common knowledge that conservative types are more concerned with managing fears than liberal types?  What about the common wisdom that conservatives are less tolerant of disorder?   

  • tiponeill

    It seems to be a popular meme on right wing talk radio that “liberals” want an honorable and moral foreign policy because they “crave approval”.
    This is just the usual straw man name calling, of course. It allows fomenting talk show blowhards to talk about stereotypes like effete liberals and lets them ignore any moral issues.
    If French troops are a little more hesitant to murder innocent women and children than U.S. contractors a “conservative” sees that as “craving approval”, while a “liberal” wishes that US contractors had such moral fiber.

    • Don Smith

      If French troops are a little more hesitant to murder innocent women and children than U.S. contractors

      Actually, tip, the Predator operators in question were active duty USAF personnel.  Is it your opinion that US forces seek to “murder innocent women and children?”  Seems so.

      • tiponeill

        Is it your opinion that US forces seek to “murder innocent women and children?”  Seems so.
        Not an “opinion” – an admitted fact (referred to in military language usually as “collateral damage”).
        Unlike the US, other countries are subject to international law and might actually be tried for crimes against humanity, so the French DO have more of a motive than Americans do.
        But still, your argument that the motivation for wanting to do the right thing is craven seeking approval is no different from the schoolyard bully claiming that you won’t beat someone up because you are “chicken”.
        It allows you to ignore the morality of your own actions, and even portray them as “heroic” – unlike those “chicken” liberals and countries who are more hesitant to murder women and children willy nilly.
         

        • fortbuckley

          I’ll bet that the blue-collar, working class Boston folks whom Tip O’Neil represented would be less-than-thrilled to see that you’ve appropriated his name for your screen identity.  

          You’re a real piece of work, tip.  And, if Tucsonans equate you with Democrats in general—well, that’s great news for we Republicans. 

          • fortbuckley

            more hesitant to murder women and children willy nilly.

            tiponeil, you do like insulting American soldiers, don’t you?  Seeing as most of the actual “kinetic” activity (i.e., shooting) in Iraq and Afghanistan is being done by uniformed American personnel, then they must be the ones doing the “murdering.”

            You’re one heck of a citizen, tip.

  • erniemccray

    It seems to me if our country was really interested in “being liked” we wouldn’t be in Iraq and Afghanistan playing big brother and we would show the rest of the world that we are truly a “Land of the Free” and abolish BS like “Don’t ask, don’t tell” and treat our gay and lesbians citizens with the respect all human beings need and deserve. We wouldn’t gobble up the world’s resources like there’s no tomorrow. One could become ill and expect to be medicated and healed without losing a roof over their head – if we truly wanted to look good.
    I don’t think we crave for approval enough.

    • Don Smith

      OK, Ernie, now that you’ve gotten that off your chest, wanna try answering the real question?  The one that I helpfully boldfaced?

      Thanks

  • erniemccray

    My reply wasn’t about getting anything “off my chest” but precisely about addressing what you boldfaced, about the “tangible benefits” of having a good standing in the world.
    We should show the world that we believe in our own values, that we appreciate diversity and differences of opinions, that we believe it’s worth exploring solving the world’s problems without counting the number of troops we need to do so.
    We should role model acceptance, bringing our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters and brothers and mothers and fathers and uncles and aunts… into the fold with the freedoms that we all hold dear.
    We should explore looking to our local farmers for our produce rather than looking for bargains when those bargains lead to the mistreatment of the animals we eat, cows crammed together so they can barely move, poultry piled on top of each other, their feet never touching the ground, fed foods they weren’t designed by nature to eat – when those bargains are because large food corporations corner the markets, flying food in from thousands of miles away and then trucking them for thousands of miles, burning precious fuel – while the farmers closest to us are forced to give up their simple  dreams of raising foods for us.
    We should show the world that we, as we say we do, love our children by not sending them off to fight wars that should never have been and should not be allowed to continue. Why do we not question why our schools under No Child Left Behind are denied funds if they don’t allow the Pentagon access to our children? Seems if we keep finding excuses to solve problems with weapons another generation will ignore peaceful ways to get along with the rest of the world.
    We militarize our children when we should educate them through the full range of arts so they can learn to see and approach and relate to their world creatively and soulfully and possibly, in the future, discover more humane ways to be citizens of the world.
    What will their future be like if they don’t have a “good standing in the world.” But they can’t survive and create a better world if we don’t model for them something beyond our “blue” and “red” states mentality, if we don’t shed our narrow “conservative” and “liberal” designations that prevent us  from relating to each other respectfully around causes that would benefit us all.
    Wouldn’t it benefit our country immensely if we, instead of fearing that we’re going to lose our individual health benefits when millions of us can’t become ill and expect to be medicated and healed, overcame, before the very eyes of the world, our reluctance to making sure everyone is safe and secure and healthy?
    Don’t get me wrong it’s not about doing things to make the world like us but it is about doing the right things, about learning to get along with each other so we can better get along with the rest of the world and find ways to, with the rest of the world, take care of the pressing needs that jeopardize us all.

    • erniemccray

      Doing any of the above seriously would enable us to stand tall and humble before the world, shining a light on how to move progressively in a century, the 21st, that isn’t looking very promising in this moment in time.

    • Don Smith

      Ernie, you and I are going to have to agree to disagree…to say the least. 

      • erniemccray

        What would we be agreeing to disagree about? That being liked has  value? I agree with you that not many will want to join us for the tough jobs like fighting wars in Afghanistan and Iraq because we have no business doing that. We aren’t, however, the only country willing to help in endeavors like providing relief for nations that are hit by natural disasters like tsunamis.
        I have absolutely no war mentality or bar fight mentality about me at all other than in real unavoidable self defense situations. I’ve learned from personal experience over and over again that if you reach out to the world with love and a spirit of trying to understand you’ll be loved back. I think that applies to a nation. Now hateful people, those out for a fight, won’t love you as a person and extremists, like the Taliban, won’t love you as a nation – but my grandfather was right: “You just keep them in your sight and go on and do what you know to be right.” I don’t know a single person who disliked that dude. My hero.
        If I approached the world, Don, as you see it, I wouldn’t have been able to make it to my 70′s as a black man in this society. Love has kept me alive because there have been times when I just wanted to go off and that would have just landed me hanging from a rope of a peach tree.
        I guess all I’m saying is we, as a nation, should for once: “Give peace a chance.” Without guns or the threat of guns. We’ve never tried it.
        Peace out, my brother!

        • fortbuckley

          If I approached the world, Don, as you see it,

          Ernie, I do think you’re projecting here.  How do you know how I see the world?  Do you read minds?

          So, you want to give peace a chance?  Wow, Ernie—that’s it!  You’ve figured it out!  Why didn’t we think of that earlier?

          Where do we disagree, Ernie?

          We should show the world that we, as we say we do, love our children by not sending them off to fight wars that should never have been and should not be allowed to continue.

          I think the war efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan have been of value. 

          Why do we not question why our schools under No Child Left Behind are denied funds if they don’t allow the Pentagon access to our children?

          I think that military recruiters should be granted reasonable access to schools, for the purpose of recruiting.

          We should explore looking to our local farmers for our produce rather than looking for bargains when those bargains lead to the mistreatment of the animals we eat, cows crammed together so they can barely move, poultry piled on top of each other, their feet never touching the ground, fed foods they weren’t designed by nature to eat – when those bargains are because large food corporations corner the markets, flying food in from thousands of miles away and then trucking them for thousands of miles, burning precious fuel – while the farmers closest to us are forced to give up their simple  dreams of raising foods for us.

          I think this has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of this thread. 

          Peace out, brother.

          • erniemccray

            Yeah, why didn’t you think of that earlier, giving peace a chance? It has nothing to do with “me” figuring anything out; it has to do with human beings reaching out to other human beings, understanding that we all have the same basic needs and it’s high time that “we” made an attempt to sit down with the rest of the world and figure a few things out that might benefit the planet. Could there be a better use of our time and energy?
            You think an illegal war, the War in Iraq, a war that has broken all the international laws relating to war, is of value? Our 18 and 19 and 20 year olds should fight wars for war criminals?
            Military recruiters have been granted way more than “reasonable access” to our schools for recruiting. At a couple of high schools here in San Diego counselors were telling some kids, mostly brown and black, stuff like: “We don’t have that English class you wanted but how about JROTC?” One student, a young friend of mine, a brilliant Latino, a fellow community activist now attending UCSD (University of California, San Diego), organized other students against such shenanigans, doing what Americans should do to address problems, and he wasn’t allowed to march with his class. Had I been his principal (that’s what I did for a lot of years) I would have written a ditty or a song about him and honored him in an assembly as a model for what living in a democracy, the Land of the Free, is all about. By the way, what’s happening in Tucson’s schools?
            So here’s the question: Why should schools take part in recruiting people for war?
            As to the situation with local farmers, peace is tied to justice. And where is the justice in small farms going under because they can’t compete with an industry that abuses animals so we can buy “Whoppers” dirt cheap? How is this not part of the topic of this thread? It’s all interconnected, how we relate to each other and the world.
            What’s the purpose of a blog if it doesn’t have a modicum of progressive thought, of fresh ideas – if it doesn’t create higher levels of critical thinking, something beyond Rush Limbrough kind of angst and negativity?

  • azmouse

    I probably shouldn’t even speak here. I’m no expert on anything political and can only speak from the heart.

    It’s kind of like the playground at school. There is always that one guy/girl most kids envy. You talk bad about them, but wish you knew what it was like to be them. They just look great, but you hate them for it.
    That’s how it seems the U.S. is to so many other countries. We really are a very diverse bunch and very excepting. We may have a long way to go in some things, but compared to many countries, and compared to where we once were, we are making strides. In some countries, homosexuality is a death sentence. Even in this country in the fifties, it was considered a mental illness and treated as such.
     Look at how some women are treated in other countries…and young girls. C’mon.  

    Anyway, my point to the question of being liked is that it’s always so hard to be liked when you’re envied, which I think our country is.

    • erniemccray

      Azmouse, you made a key statement, I think: “We may have a long way to go in some things, but compared to many countries, and compared to where we once were, we are making strides.”
      And that’s what it’s all about; we have to keep making the strides because we hold ourselves up as, as the kids say today: “Being all THAT.” Too keep such an attitude from being empty and hollow, we have to always push to be as good as we can be. I believe that’s more admirable than enviable and would bring us more good standing in the world than ill will.

      • azmouse

        Hello ernie,
        Thank you for what you said. I absolutely love your writing and I just don’t have those skills, so I appreciate you reading and commenting on what I said.

        • erniemccray

          Just keep following your mind and be true to yourself and the words will just follow. Keep questioning – everything. I admire your zest for life. Having lost someone special as you have, you are proof to me that better days are coming for me. Take care.

    • leftfield

      Azmouse sez: “I  probably shouldn’t even speak here. I’m no expert on anything political and can only speak from the heart.”

      You are welcome to speak anywhere you like, Az.  Not being an expert never stopped me.

      • azmouse

        LOL!
        Well, thanks leftfield. Sometimes I feel out of my element and I’m not good at defending myself from attack (lol). But the topic sucks me in and I can’t help myself!

  • http://pointmantucson.yuku.com/ Michael Patrick Brewer

    Don,
    Ask your children what they think. This is all preparation for them. We have mucked  it up pretty sufficiently with the  “Tower of Babel” polemic and polarity that now defines are system of governing.
    Does America like America?  That is an  a priori question.  You can’t make friends if you ain’t got self esteem.  And that is not the same as Chauvinism.
    How many countries have you traveled to in the past 8 years? Do you know any foreign bankers? Which population of people are you talking about? The commoners, the military, the mercantilists, the clergy, the athletes, the CIA, the defamed Blackwater employees, defense contractors,  heads of State, Diplomats?
    Without any specificity, your question is geared for talk show  audiences only. The folk here at the Citizen are thinkers.

    • Don Smith

      Mike, I hope you feel better, after getting that off your chest.

      Without any specificity, your question is geared for talk show  audiences only. The folk here at the Citizen are thinkers.

      Well then….you’re a thinker, Mike. Surely you can come up with a specific answer to the specific question I boldfaced in the main article?

      To help spur this discussion along, I’ll add this thought. I think elite liberals (see definition above, in my response to Leftfield) are trying to delude the American people into believing something they know isn’t true. That fallacy is: 

      IF America is more liked, THEN the rest of the world will step up and relieve America of its military burdens overseas.

      For the reasons I’ve laid out above, our elite liberals KNOW that Europe, Japan and the other nations with real financial/military capacity won’t step up.  They lack the will to fight, the means to fight—-because they’ve deliberately disarmed their militaries—-or both.

      Therefore, if a tough job has to be done in Iraq, Afghanistan, tsunami relief or elsewhere, the US will have to do it.  There is no one else.
      The elite liberals know this, and yet the play their con game.

      Dear Citizen thinkers, feel free to take those additional thoughts and expand on my original questions:  What practical value, if any, does America derive from being liked by the rest of the world?

  • http://pointmantucson.yuku.com/ mike_brewer

    What  practical value you ask?
    Peace,  good will, and balancing the import/export deficit. I believe that would be the reason we go to war. Is there another end game that the defense contractors are not sharing with us?
    There are reasons that are more specific but for now we will remain at the  high level of abstraction where your question resides….”the rest of the world.”  Who the hell is that?
    One little hint of specificity…the “tough job” in Iraq and Afghan might not be so tough if we had a few allies. Like WWll.  You cannot garner allies when you DEMAND that all goods and supplies and monies come through only American Banks in Iraq, (Bundesbank is not real happy about this), and when the same products are part of a gargantuan war profiteering machine.
    “To help spur this discussion along” you state.  Don, you frequently answer in a show stopping way,  not in the interest of furtherance of dialogue.   You accuse virtually everyone who does not agree with you of  “getting stuff off their chest,” while you are simultaneously chest beating yourself in front of us.   Is that just the way that elite conservatives communicate? All abstractions, no meat.
    Define elite please.
    “Liberal” is from the latin root “liberare” meaning to free oneself from oppressive forces. Last time I looked our mission is to “liberate” the people of Iraq.
    Ronald Reagan “liberated”  the Banks and S&L’s and Air Lines from regulation. That is a true and literal liberal Don. I do not know the ones you frequently use as straw men.
    Oh, and a flash of a thought,  being liked by the, rest of the world, could very well mean respecting  our two party system which is currently in shambles.  And with conversations like these the ranks of the Independent voter are going to swell…..like the “rest of the world.”
    So Don, in all fairness, I answered  your boldface question, now howabout one of mine?  How many countries/cultures have you visited in the past 8 years?

    • fortbuckley

      How many countries/cultures have you visited in the past 8 years?
      Define “elite,” please.

      Sorry Mike, I’m not fetching your sticks.  If you want someone to fetch sticks, you should get a dog.

      I suppose I could say that I’m sorry if you’re unhappy with the way I answer questions in the comments….but I’d be lying to you if I said that.  I’m not sorry. That’s the way I write, and that’s how I plan to run this blog.  You visit at your own risk…just as I visit your blog at my own risk.

      It seems to me you’re dodging the main point of my article:  there is LIMITED value from currying favor with other nations, because those other nations are of limited or no value in combat situations.   I concede your point on the import/export deficit…we Americans are bipartisan spendthrifts.  But, IMO, “good will” means little when other countries can’t (or won’t) pull their weight.  And, also IMO, a lot of the “peace” in the world in recent years came about because America was willing to spend blood and treasure either creating that peace or safeguarding it.

      That’s how I see it.

      • http://pointmantucson.yuku.com/ mike_brewer

        Well, l I have  a dog. A Border Collie. He is really smart. So smart he answers all my questions without barking incessantly.  He has been a registered Independent since birth.  Neither one of us find much value in sticks.
         

        • fortbuckley

          Mike, it sounds like you’ve found one fine dog, then.  A real keeper.

  • fortbuckley

    Reply to erniemccray, January 3rd, 1:04 AM (Ernie, I’m replying to you up here, because there’s no more room in the nested comment thread we were using.)

    Ernie, I think you’re just speaking from your digital soapbox now.  It sounds as if you enjoy living in fantasyland.  By all means, please continue to…but don’t be suprised if I put very little weight in your opinions. (Of course, you’re welcome to do the same with mine).

    why didn’t you think of that earlier, giving peace a chance?
    I guess that, the image of that first World Trade Center tower toppling made it hard for me to think of our world being at “peace” in the first place.

    it has to do with human beings reaching out to other human beings, understanding that we all have the same basic needs and it’s high time that “we” made an attempt to sit down with the rest of the world and figure a few things out that might benefit the planet.

    Didn’t we create, and fund, the United Nations for this?  You know, the organization that’s given us (a) peacekeepers that demand sex from young girls they’re protecting; (b) the Oil-for-Food scam and (c) non-stop bashing of Israel. 

    You think an illegal war, the War in Iraq, a war that has broken all the international laws relating to war, is of value? Our 18 and 19 and 20 year olds should fight wars for war criminals?

    You’re just being silly here, Ernie…and I suspect you know it.

    At a couple of high schools here in San Diego counselors were telling some kids, mostly brown and black, stuff like: “We don’t have that English class you wanted but how about JROTC?”

    So the school canceled English classes?  How is that the Pentagon’s fault?  Did the school system divert funding from English classes to JROTC?  If they did, isn’t your beef with the school system?

    I do have to admit, though…if you really, really want to Speak Truth To Power, the Pentagon is a more inviting target… 

    What’s the purpose of a blog if it doesn’t have a modicum of progressive thought, of fresh ideas – if it doesn’t create higher levels of critical thinking, something beyond Rush Limbrough kind of angst and negativity?

    Oh, I don’t know, Ernie—free speech perhaps?  The First Amendment?

    Ernie, thanks for an entertaining interlude.  Enjoy fantasyland.
     

    • erniemccray

      Fantasyland? Where is that? Is this about name calling? Hey, I too, find it very hard to imagine a world at peace but that doesn’t stop me, for a second, from pursuing it.
      I’m being silly about the War in Iraq being an illegal war? Look it up! We can just go blow up a place at will and kill despots on whims?
      I’m an educator, Don, retired, but still very active with kids, through drama and poetry and prose and movement. I have to deal with the real world straight up if I’m to help young people relate to it and, hopefully, change it for the better. And you don’t think I realize that my beef is with the school system regarding militarizing our children? We’ve taken them on, having made some changes in San Diego Schools through ENAC (Education Not Arms Coalition). Our group consists mostly of high school kids who want to make a difference, realizing that we don’t exist in a FANTASYLAND.
      And, by the way, the children understand. I’ll always remember, a couple of years ago when some 3rd graders and I were talking about how if we want to change our world we have to start where we live, in our schools, in our neighborhoods, in our town. We improvised scenes, creating dialogue and actions for projects we wanted to undertake. Somehow we got to talking about the world at large and a child mentioned Osama bin Laden. I asked him: “What do you know about bin Laden?” He replied: “He’s from Iraq.” I said, matter-of-factly: “No, he’s from Saudi Arabia.” A little girl raised her hand and I said “Yes?” and she said, bringing tears to my eyes, ” Then we shouldn’t be fighting a war in Iraq!” From the mouths of babes, huh? This wonderful beautiful little brown faced girl in Barrio Logan innately understood something too many adults don’t understand. Take one look around her neighborhood and there’s not a single hint of a FANTASYLAND anywhere to be found.
      Don, I can do “silly” really well when I’m horsing around with my family and friends but when it comes to my thoughts on making the world a better place, I’m serious as the Swine Flu. I’m not just a commenter, I’m directly involved in everything I’ve brought up or discussed throughout this BEAUTIFUL WEBSITE of IDEAS.
      And, to you, it’s just an “entertaining interlude?” I can’t wait to hear what the kids I work with have to say about this little tidbit from the grownup world. Maybe we can have a little fun and get silly with it – and mostly see what we can learn from it as we strive to make sense of our world. And, Don, believe me as I’m not saying this sarcastically: Thanks for the Idea. You’ve gotten my creative juices flowing and I can’t wait to put something on stage.
       

      • http://pointmantucson.yuku.com/ mike_brewer

        Your comments are inspiring Ernie.  I read each one twice sometimes. It is folks like you that are going to turn the corner away from the polarity and incessant negative polemic that fuels some our bloggers.
        We will leave Don for you and leftfield to banter with. His writing style is a bit much for this ole Marine.  And like yourself, there is plenty to do on a daily basis in the real world.

        • erniemccray

          Thanks. And I hear you. I believe my bantering is done on Fort Buckley so it’s all on leftfield.

          • http://pointmantucson.yuku.com/ mike_brewer

            See  you on another trail Ernie.
            You know there is a rumor out here that Fort Buckley is like the old King Ranch in Texas…..” some go on, but not all  come back!” tsk.
             
             
             
             
             
             
             

        • leftfield

          Ernie’s been around and seen a lot.  There’s a lot of wisdom in what he has to say.  Perhaps more importantly, there’s a lot of hope there, too; hope for a better world.  I can’t help but hope myself that he is right about the possibilities.

      • fortbuckley

        A little girl raised her hand and I said “Yes?” and she said, bringing tears to my eyes, ” Then we shouldn’t be fighting a war in Iraq!” From the mouths of babes, huh? This wonderful beautiful little brown faced girl in Barrio Logan innately understood something too many adults don’t understand.

        Oh, brother. 

        Ernie, it was explained time and time again why the US went into Iraq.  Just because you disagree doesn’t mean it was the wrong thing to do.  As I’ve mentioned upthread, I think it was the right thing to do.

        Did you explain to that little girl that, because we invaded, the rape rooms and mass murders of the Hussein regime were ended?  That Israel no longer had to worry about a chemical missile threat?  Something tells me you didn’t. 

        I’m looking forward to your Beautiful Website of Ideas.  It WILL have a comment section, right?

        • fortbuckley

          Oh, I almost forgot.  When you told that little gir about Halabja, what did she say?

          • erniemccray

            This is my final comment: because something is explained over and over again doesn’t mean that it’s right. The illegality of the War in Iraq is not mu opinion. It’s a statement of fact. Google my good friend, Marjorie Cohn, ex-president of the National’s Lawyers Guild, for what she has written on the subject. Anyway, I set out for a little dialogue here, based on my involvement in various matters, and I see that’s not going to happen. So, I’m outta here.

  • leftfield

    Don, you do have a knack for writing controversial arguments.

    If you want to continue the thread, you might consider asking the next obvious question: Why has the US been so un-liked in recent years?  I’ll bet that one will generate a few responses. 

    • fortbuckley

      Left, perhaps you should reconsider Mark Evans’ offer to become a regular blogger here.  You’d be a real addition to the stable of bloggers here, IMO.  If nothing else, things would sure be interesting.

      I understand that you’re busy…but, even if you only wrote once or twice a month, it would be worth it.

      Give it some thought.

      • leftfield

        I do think about it from time to time and someday I may just take him up.  Aside from the time commitment, there is the issue of being outed as a “Godless Communist”.  My commitment to the advance of socialism has to come second to my commitment to my family and my work.  We commies are, after all, the original “family values” guys.

  • Ferraribubba

    Far be it from me to claim that I’m an expert on Afghanistan here. My interests in warfare history run more toward 20th century European battlefields.
    But this I do know about afghanistan. Over the last 2,000+ years they have been invaded by mumerous countries with the same result.
    Defeat with heavy loss of  life.
    In the last 150 years or so, it’s been the British, the Soviets, and now us.
    The British used to send in whole regiments, I think over the Kyber Pass, and in a few weeks only one lone survivor would return with this message. “Send more troops in, and this will be the result. Again.”
    And the British did send more in. and one lone survivor came back, again, and again, and again. Until they finally got smart and quit trying.
    The problem is, IMHO, that Kabul is the capital. of only the city of Kabul.
    The rest of the country is made up of numerous automous fifedoms, ruled by warlords from the middle ages. All they want to do is war with their neighbors and grow their poppy as they have been doing since Cleopatra was sitting on her throne in Egypt.
    Granted that our beloved POTUS Barry inheirited this dirty little was from W., but by pelling the world that we’re pulling out as of July 2013 is just wasting American lives for political gain.
    We have no real plan how to win the war, so why not just pull out now, and delare victory? Have a parade down Broadway and be done with it.
    Do you think that waiting 4 more years, when they’ve been at war for over 2,000 is going to make any difference to them?
    Get Serious.
    Yer pal, Obersturmfuhrer Bubba

    • fortbuckley

      Obersturmfurher, with respect, you’re way off the topic of this particular post.  Care to try again?

  • fortbuckley

    You know there is a rumor out here that Fort Buckley is like the old King Ranch in Texas…..” some go on, but not all  come back!” tsk.

    What a fabulous rumor.