Tucson Citizen.com
Freethought Arizona - Reason, Science, and Freedom of Expression

Do Atheists Hate Christmas?

by on Dec. 23, 2011, under Arizona Families, Art & Culture, Christian Self-Righteous Arrogance, God & Bible, History, Language, Reason, Religion, Sanity, Science

 

Ho Ho Ho…or Bah, Humbug?

 

I’m an atheist.  I also celebrate Christmas. By that I do not mean that I celebrate the generic and politically correct “holidays”. Nor do I mean that I celebrate that holiday observed by many atheists and pagans but unknown to virtually everyone else, solstice.  I don’t mean that I celebrate Hanukkah or Kwanzaa either. I mean that I celebrate the same blinking light, decorated tree, gift exchanging, tinsel hanging, sappy music playing, Santa Clause, Jesus Mary and Joseph Christmas hodgepodge that most other people in western countries celebrate. I don’t celebrate Christmas with nearly as much gusto as some people do, to be sure. I’ve never had the most decorations on my block or thrown a serious Christmas party or anything like that. I grumble about Christmas stuff in November (too early) and obnoxious decorations (too loud/too much). But I do observe the holiday, as opposed to totally ignoring it or actively trying to replace it with something else as many of my atheist friends do.

I have a very specific reason for celebrating Christmas. Christmas day isn’t important to me per se — the twelve days in the traditional Christmas carol is closer to my actual experience. For me, Christmas has no more to do with Santa Clause and elves than it does with baby Jesus in the manger — two legends that I regard as equally fantastical. It certainly has nothing to do with the crass shop till you drop Christmas commercial obligation that is simultaneously generated and lamented by the general public and the media every single year. It’s not a political statement about peace on Earth and goodwill to men either — although that’s a good idea at any time of year. Neither is Christmas just an excuse for eating and drinking with extended family, although that is a nice and enjoyable aspect of the holiday.

The reason that I celebrate Christmas is that Christmas is the closest thing I’ve found to a time machine — a mental express train linking the present with a chain of Christmases stretching back through my entire life. For me, Christmas functions as a potent associative mental shortcut, not just to memories but to entire states of mind. I can re-experience what I was thinking 15 Christmases ago in a way that I can’t re-experience anything else that happened 15 years ago. I do my future planning every New Years Eve, and celebrating Christmas helps me get me into a frame of mind for thinking about long term planning.

It took two Christmases I spent in New Zealand for me to really figure all that out.

I had no idea what Christmas in New Zealand was going to be like before I went. I figured it wouildn’t be much different from Tucson, since Tucson doesn’t usually have snow and isn’t ever very cold at Christmas. But Christmas in New Zealand was really quite different, because even in Tucson it’s still winter. The air here is dry and crisp even if it’s not very cold. The sun comes up late and it gets dark early every evening. The Center for Inquiry has a cute holiday card that reads “Axial Tilt is the Reason for the Season!” Turns out they’re right on more than just an elementary science level.

I called Christmas the two years I was in New Zealand ”The 12 endless summer days of Christmas.” It was summer so of course it felt like summer in every way, which my brain steadfastly refused to associate with Christmas. It was warm, though certainly not hot by Tucson standards. The daily high temps in Tucson and North Auckland where I lived aren’t much different in December, even though at night it gets quite a bit colder in Tucson. The air had that summertime kind of humidity and buzz about.  It smelled like summer, we had the sound of birds and Cicadas outside, and we got afternoon thunderstorms now and then.

They played almost the same Christmas music there as here; people decorated stores and houses in pretty much the same way, perhaps not as much as here but still plenty. By far the biggest thing that kept it from feeling like Christmas was the daylight.  It was bright sunlight out from about 5:30 in the morning to 9:30pm. Because of my early morning work schedule there I was almost never awake long in the evening when it was dark. We had a Christmas tree and some Christmas lights…but when the heck do you turn them on with it light whenever you’re awake? It always seemed rather pointless. I never realized how much of Christmas is associated with staring at twinkling lights in the crisp (even if not freezing cold) darkness, and how much the holiday is completely out of place in the endless light of a warm summer’s day.

The Christmas memory train just wouldn’t run for me in New Zealand. Those two years were the only times I’ve ever been depressed around the holidays, and it remains a factor keeping me from moving back to New Zealand permanently. But it also helped me to make sense of why our family of happy atheists still feels the need to put up lights and a tree, walk though the neighborhood in the dark looking at everyone else’s lights, and add songs with philosophically repulsive lyrics like “God Rest Ye Merry, Gentlemen” and “Hark! The Herald Angels Sing” to our musical playlists every December. :-) It’s a memory aid, which sounds far more trivial than it actually is.

Some may conclude that the failure of Christmas in New Zealand means I have only been celebrating winter solstice all along. For complicated reasons, I was in New Zealand for two summers in a row but never in the winter. I don’t know for sure, but I strongly suspect that winter without Christmas would have been just as useless in regard to memories as Christmas without winter proved to be. The Christmas train runs on the totality of the Christmas experience, not on any one part of it.

Some atheists probably do hate Christmas, but not me. For those who celebrate Christmas, whether you actually believe in the sky fairies it’s supposedly about or not, here’s wishing you a merry one. Ho Ho Ho! May you relive good memories and create some special new ones. And for those who don’t celebrate Christmas, here’s just wishing you some good times this weekend!

 

More in Pol. & Govt.:

Cancer In The Water

  • cochisecitizen

    TMI.
    I’m an atheist and I like Christmas too, but it doesn’t take 10 paragraphs to explain why.
     

  • http://www.google.com TL;DR

    I’m an atheist, but I celebrate Christmas because my parents do.  If they didn’t, we’d still get together during the holidays because that’s when we can all get time off work. 
    The over-the-top commercialism is a bit much to take, and seems to grow worse each year.  We don’t really exchange gifts, except for the young childen, focusing instead on “Christmas presence” – just being together as a family is lot more important.
    If my parents were Muslim, I’d still be an atheist but probablycelebrate Ramadan just to join in the fun.  What’s the harm in that? 
    Nobody “hates” Christmas.
     
     

  • Captain Howdy

    Lame. Atheists don’t believe in the Christian myth, but Christmas as we celebrate it today barely approaches anything even remotely christian. We celebrate the spirit of giving and we embrace the values of family and tradition – just like everyone else. And we tolerate those who choose to have christian faith just as we expect and deserve to be tolerated for not having that faith. I know a lot of atheists and all of us celebrate Christmas. Why? Because we embrace our heritage and culture. Can you have an angel on top of your Christmas tree and still be an atheist? Yup. I’m living proof. C’mon – I don’t believe in ghosts but I still celebrate halloween. Is this really so mysterious? Way to feed the propaganda machine. In the future, please refrain from speaking on my behalf.

  • Tip O’Neill

    I love christmas – it’s a fun holiday and there is no reason to let someone else’s religious mumbo jumbo spoil it.

    About the only thing that might distinguish me as an atheist from the average celebrant is that I don’t lie to my kids about Santa Claus. I wonder how common that is among atheists ? 

  • Carl LaFong

    I am an atheist who loved Christmas until it was destroyed by political correctness and shopping mania. I loved it simply because it was a period of unusual personal goodwill and warmth, and Christmas music is beautiful. Now that is gone and I miss it.

  • dave

    What you are is a person who still needs a lot of labels slapped all over everything, in order to make sense of the world around you.  Stop.  Take a deep breath and think about what the word celebrate means.  Ask yourself why you need to do this?  Your ability to jog happy memories should not be restricted by the fixation of holidays.  Maybe you have more baggage about the past than you’re willing to admit.

  • Ron Wyman

    I am a Christian, who celebrates the birth, life, death, resurrection, ascension, and return of Christ Jesus.  The birth of Jesus is completely unique, as it was predicted in the pages of the Bible, also in other secular texts. He was born fully man and fully God, and that is a unique and difficult event to understand and accept, but it is also true–not because I believe it to be true, rather because it is true.  Jesus has so many names that help describe and identify Him, that it will take over 45 minutes to speak them.  He is the only person that history attributes to self-proclaiming the status of being God, but never considered foolish, or insane.  Jesus lived a life that was without sin, and always obedient to God the Father, and even submitting Himself to the will of the Father, in His death.  I do not fully understand this, but I can comprehend it, and accept it as truth.  Understanding the concept of God, is naturally difficult, but we are also give the ability to comprehend a little bit, and use reason, and faith, to gain acceptance.  Jesus’ life provides humanity with a lifestyle to emulate, admire and strive for.  We see a life devoted to healing, teaching, preaching, compassion, and passion.  We see a life of reaching out to people where they are at, and then changing their attitude, so that they can change their lives, and stop being so rebellious towards God, others and self.  We see a life devoted to worship of God, submitting to God, praying to God, teaching and preaching the gospel of God…That there really is a loving and compassionate God, who you are rebelling against, but is still continuing to pursue you, because He cherishes you.     That Christ (Messiah-Anointed One) Jesus (Jehovah the Savior) is the only way to accepting God, as God, and becoming one of His adopted children. That our sin (rebellion against God) can only be blotted out by God, and that we (humans) just do not have that ability.  God thinks that highly of us, even when we are rebelling.  We are held accountable for our lives and what we do, and we are found guilty.  But because of the birth, life, death, resurrection, ascension, and future return of Christ Jesus, we are given a full and complete pardon, based on our faith, or lack of faith in Christ Jesus.
    It is your choice, and your responsibility.  Only God can change your mind and opinion, and bring you to believe in Him, as He is, and who you are in His eyes.

    • Pacific Babe

      Well Ron, it’s been quite a while since a christian like yourself has been willing to speak up and express idiotic ideas as you have done.  Obviously you enjoy following rather than thinking for yourself.  No proof that jesus ever existing. NONE.  You’re willing to fall for the myths written by bronze age tribesmen without any access to science or technology.  Then, they thought the earth was flat and that we were the center of the universe.  Get real … the world evolved and museums are filled with more facts verifying evolution than any one human could ever read.
      IF jesus existed, he had a life without sin because there is no such thing as “sin”.  You haven’t sinned, nor has any other human in this world.  That’s an idea you’ve been brainwashed to believe and you hang on it for reasons I can’t even begin to imagine. 
       
      I’m perfectly happy to change my mind about a god provided he/she/it can be verified.  If you must be a follower and submit on your knees to a sky fairy then do it.  But don’t expect others to buy into this sort of silliness.
       
      Now get up off your knees and you’ll enjoy the holiday more!  Babe
       

    • tunkashila

      If the birth of Jesus “is completely unique”, then why do Buddha, Mithra, Krishna, Osiris, Apollo and numerous other pagan deities share the same details, from being born of a virgin in a manger or cave, wise men bearing gifts following a star or similar astronomical sign, etc. to dying and being resurrected?  Faith apparently acts as a blindfold to its adherents as well as an opiate.

      • Bruc

        Well said.

  • shakesfirst

    Considering Christmas is actually a pagan festival stolen by a monarchy wanting all the money of the day, believing or not isn’t relevant in any way. PROVE I’m wrong, it is historically correct whilst the Bible is in no way has any factual credibility to anyone with half (or a complete), brain. 

  • Ron Wyman

    Pacific Babe, I can not prove that Jesus is who He says he is in the bible , or that the God in the Bible does in fact exist and is based on reality of the world we live in.  Nor can you prove that humanity evolved from other species.  You are even unable to provide enough factual evidence that would win a case in a court of law.  It is a shame that you have to use manipulation in your article from the beginning of the 2nd sentence to the end.  I can, in a court of law, provide enough evidence to show that Jesus existed, and show that Jesus did state that He was in fact God, but others believed that He was God, that he did the things in the Bible, that were reported about Him, and was never considered a liar, fool, or mentally ill.  This has already been done many times over, and the verdict has always been the same.  No one in the scientific community will ever say that trans-species evolution is anything but a theory, that has yet to be shown as factual.  There just is no evidence that can show any direct or indirect correlation.
    When people stop doing things that harm themselves, harm others, or harm property, or other life forms, and are able to live in close social proximity with others, and do no harm during their lifetimes, then there will be no “sin.” We humans do more harm to other humans.  When was the last time one person went a week without hurting themselves, or others, or both, or even treated everyone with compassion and respect.
    Tunkashila, Buddha and Krishna talked about Jesus with awe and respect.  No other religious leader has ever said the he was God incarnate.  Can you prove that Jesus was a myth and do it in a logical systematic manner?  So far, you would be the only one who was able to do this.  Christopher Hitchens was never able to do it, and I doubt that he even tried to.  
    It takes faith to believe in Christ Jesus.  It also takes faith to believe in evolution, or trans-species evolution, or to not believe in a  supreme being, and view life as an agnostic or atheist.  You have your faith, and your reasons for believing what you do believe in. I have my faith and my reasons for believing what I believe in.  Most likely, some one is wrong, and we are betting our lives on what we believe is the right choice.  We are fully responsible for our actions.

    • Tip O’Neill

      The theory of evolution and creationism are not “equivalents” in the sense that they are equally unpronounceable.

      One is based upon reality, and is accepted as fact in the biological sciences, the other based upon myth with no supporting evidence and no scientific value.

      In fact I have never seen such a hodgepodge of illiterate information.

      >Tunkashila, Buddha and Krishna talked about Jesus with awe and respect. 

      Buddha lived 500 years before Jesus. Krishna is an imaginary “god” like Jehovah.

      Please go back to school 

    • Pacific Babe

      Ron you are a very sorry excuse for a human!  The Theory of Evolution has many facts and support behind it as does the Theory of Gravity and the Theory of Relativity.   Why do you suppose museums around the world are dedicated to dinosaurs, cosmology, fossil records etc?  There is no credible museum dedicated to the bible, although there should be, as it would surely show how ignorant the authors were.  So far, not one iota of evidence has demonstrated that the Theory of Evolution is anything but correct.  All of us who have an interest in science do await anything that would demonstrate it’s flawed but indeed it is NOT.
       
      On the other hand, Paul plagiarized the stupid myth of jesus and did not start re-writing the myth for 30-50 years after the alleged death of jesus. There is no evidence he ever existed and if he did how do you get from there to the fact that he is a god?  I am not “betting” I am right.  There is simply no reason to waste my life on stories written by old men who needed to find a way to control their society.  If/when science verifies a supernatural being, and if/when we have some proof that the supernatural being has control over our lives, and can give a explanation on why he/she/it supports stoning gays, women and children then I MIGHT sit up an listen.  In the meantime, if you want to spend your life wallowing in the hate preached in the bible do so.  
       
      Get a life Ron.  Take a trip to the Smithsonian in Washington DC.  Ask for a docent who can take you thru the fossil records and you just might begin to figure it out.  You evolved out of water, you weren’t magically placed on this earth by a master chess player.

    • nondescript

      Evolution has stood up in the court of law. Check out the Dover case as an example.

  • http://pointmantucson.yuku.com/ Michael Patrick Brewer

    Ralph Waldo Emerson once said of Henry David Thoreau, “He is a genius but can only feel himself in opposition.”
    The incessant need to be oppositional is assuredly quite lonely.
      God speed, and may the non rational miracle of Christmas come visit occasionally.
    Rudolf Bultman did a pretty good job of dymythologizing  Jesus.

  • Believer

    It is time for you atheists to repent and love God.  Tonight on Christmas eve, you should read the gospels and remember that God loves you.  Merry Christmas. 

    • cochisecitizen

      No need to repent, I already love God. Just not your version of some white haired old man sitting on a cloud keeping track of who’s been naughty and nice and who gets through the pearly gates.  And if I want to read fiction, there’s much more entertaining fiction than the gospels.

  • Chris Deliah

    It feels nicer to tell oneself there is no harm and much good in these outworn celebrations. But what is really being celebrated is the non-existent birth of a mythical hero in whose name wars, mass murder, sexual abuse and every other kind of moral low have been perpetrated for thousands of years. There is no point in hating it – fuelling it with such emotion elicits a response that perpetuates it further. It is simply highly distasteful and something every civilised person should properly investigate and then, unless they are an animal, abhor. With kind wishes to the more sensitive and humane souls who feel isolated from otherwise ‘normal’ people at this time of shameful cavorting.

  • Pacific Babe

    So, I’m catching up on my reading and ran across this NYT’s article written 2 days ago (12/23/11).  It brought me to the point of wanting to vomit, particularly when I read “Thanks to the absurd ideas peddled by American fundamentalists, we are constantly forced to respond to the myth — debunked long ago by scientists — that homosexuality leads to pedophilia.  For years, the christian right in America has exported its doctrine to Africa, and, along with it, homophobia.  In Uganda, American evangelical christians even held workshops and met with key officials to preach their message of hate shortly before a bill to impose the death penalty for homosexual conduct was introduced in Uganda’s Parliament in 2009.”  Here’s the full article http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/23/opinion/gay-and-vilified-in-uganda.html
     
    So Ron Wyman, Michael Patrick Brewer, Anon3 and Believer is this the sort of article that makes you proud to be a christian?  Even if you feel this is wrong, it continues, and it continues when christians claim to be “liberal”.  Quietly liberal christians support this sort of hate.  You may all think missionaries are great, but I personally despise the message they send around the world, just as I despise all stupid christians and religionists who are willing to pridefully rely on “faith” … which is to say you all remain pridefully IGNORANT!  It’s time the world stop hanging on to a sky fairy and realize that today is just another day … albeit a day we can concentrate on more compassion, but a day we best give up the idea of the supernatural.  Babe

  • http://pointmantucson.yuku.com/ Michael Patrick Brewer

    Yes it does, because those folks have no concept of the message of Jesus, nor Buddha, nor any avatar.  As a Therapist I would say they are mostly passive aggressive repressed souls trying to project their wish fulfillment thinking upon others. It has little to do with the untainted love of Christ.  Sometimes you all have some wacked syllogisms and leaps of logic.  It would be akin to finding a few felons who are atheist and then proclaiming that atheism causes felonious behavior.
    Ron, Anon, Believer and about 100 million other delusional Americans opt out on the side of faith. Scratch the underside of those who relegate faith to the dung heap of logic and you will often find hostility and some form of delayed grief. Just my take. And I return to that zeitgeist of an earlier post…where one can only feel themselves in opposition. In all the parables of Jesus there is virtually nothing oppositional. It is a message of unconditional acceptance. Dig deep, you will find it.

    • jason

      “Scratch the underside of those who relegate faith to the dung heap of logic and you will often find hostility and some form of delayed grief”

      Ideas should be judged on their merit, not on their source. Hostility and grief undoubtedly cause some to question their faith. I’ve spoken with some for whom that is true, although I don’t count myself among their number. There are other causes for other people – in my own case it was curiosity and the quest for knowledge. Some people, such as my children, were never indoctrinated to have faith in the first place. They started saying “no” to their grandparents’ offer to take them to church simply because they found it boring. Makes no difference.

      What matters is our explanations for why faith is a good thing or a bad thing. I say faith is a bad thing, because it is a conjecture that admits no criticism and no refutation. Or, more traditionally stated, faith is the presumption of substance of things hoped for and the presumed evidence of things for which we have no evidence. It is an outright denial of the only means mankind has for generating knowledge.

      • anon 3

        “I say faith is a bad thing, because it is a conjecture that admits no criticism and no refutation.”

        Faith is a necessary component of truth-believing.  By throwing out faith and embracing this rather impractical epistemology, you’re denying the only means mankind has for knowing truth.   Anyone who is chained to your epistomology is obligated to qualify every proposition with, “but that could be wrong,” which is to say, “I don’t actually know whether this is true.”  

        In of itself, faith is neither good nor bad…  It’s another false dichotomy.  The problem is that you need faith in the right things.  

        • jason

          “you’re denying the only means mankind has for knowing truth.”

          No. What I am denying is man’s only means of feeling absolutely certain that he knows the truth. Big difference.

          “Anyone who is chained to your epistomology is obligated to qualify every proposition with, “but that could be wrong,””

          Yes, although once I’ve explained it to people I presume they understand that qualification without me having to state it explicitly every time. Regardless of whether it’s implicit or explicit, the qualification is there because I really could be wrong. Man is fallible. Or do you deny that man is fallible?
          Faith does not escape this problem of needing to qualify every proposition unless you deny human fallibility. You said it yourself, “you need faith in the right things.” But if man is fallible, then perhaps you have faith in the wrong thing, meaning you could be wrong! It matters not if you claim that God is infallible, because you, the man, may have faith in the wrong God.

          “which is to say, “I don’t actually know whether this is true.””

          No. We can know truth, we just can’t ever be completely certain that we’ve eliminated all the errors from our knowledge. You are confusing the feeling or claiming of absolute certainty, with knowledge itself. Knowledge is a theory that survives our best attempts at criticism/refutation and can be used to make decisions. Nothing more, nothing less.

          Per our previous discussion of randomness and determinism:
          If I flip a fair coin once I *don’t know* whether it will come up heads or tails.
          If I flip a fair coin many times I *do know* it is likely to come up heads approximately 50% of the time, but I *don’t know* exactly how many heads I will get. If I flip 1000 times I could guess that I’ll get 500 heads. That’s the best possible guess, but still more likely than not to be wrong. It is possible that I could flip 1000 times and get 1000 heads. There is no reasonable operating theory for the precise number of heads that I’ll get.
          However, whether I flip a coin or not I *do know* the sun will rise in the east tomorrow morning. That’s not just the best guess, like 500 heads out of 1000 flips. It’s the [only] reasonable operating theory: we have a good explanation for why and where the sun will rise, and no successful refutation or criticism.

          There’s always a possibility that the Earth will be struck by a previously unknown celestial body that’s large enough to destroy Earth or alter its rotation such that the sun does not rise in the east tomorrow morning. It’s possible that some heretofore unknown physical phenomenon will cause the sun to go out, or to go supernova and engulf the Earth. Or even some heretofore “unknown unknown” event that could prevent the sunrise. But acknowledging I could be wrong that way doesn’t mean I don’t know whether or not the sun will rise in the east tomorrow morning. It just means we shouldn’t consider the matter completely closed and stop looking for criticisms/refutations. If this afternoon, some astronomers discover a very large asteroid on a course to collide with Earth before tomorrow morning, then we might have a refutation for the conjecture and we’d probably change our operating theory. Everyone except the “ignorance is bliss” set would find great value in having held this matter of the sunrise open to criticism and reconsideration.

          I cannot see how faith could possibly improve the situation. If we have faith that the sun will rise, well we might be having faith in the wrong thing. You’d probably say having faith in the sunrise is the wrong thing – but others might disagree. There is no means to settle who is correct between those who claim faith in the sunrise and those who claim faith in some proximate cause of the sunrise such as God. On top of that, faith makes things worse because instead of studying astronomy and finding an asteroid, perhaps in time to divert it with a nuke, we would spend our time and energy praising God, or the sun, or the giant turtle upon whose back the world rests, for the sunrise and die oblivious, with the (false) feeling of certainty that the sun will always rise.

          • anon 3

            “We can know truth, we just can’t ever be completely certain that we’ve eliminated all the errors from our knowledge. ”

            It’s usually said that we can’t know false beliefs.

            “You are confusing the feeling or claiming of absolute certainty, with knowledge itself. ”

            I’m not confusing anything.  I’m just saying knowledge has to be true.  The connection between (in)fallibility and knowledge is your own making.  It should be plain to anyone that human beings are not capable of infallible certainty without some radical changes.  (Again, man is not God.  God is not man.)  I dare you to confess to your wife and kids that you aren’t actually certain about any knowledge, including how much you love them.  ”I haven’t yet refuted the claim that I love you, honey…”  

            “Knowledge is a theory that survives our best attempts at criticism/refutation and can be used to make decisions. Nothing more, nothing less.”

            You keep saying that as if it’s in the dictionary that way.  You know it’s not, right?  I don’t really want to keep saying I don’t agree with this characterization.  Mathematicians don’t usually operate this way. Scientists don’t usually operate this way.  Laypeople certain don’t.

            “we have a good explanation for why and where the sun will rise…”

            Didn’t you say, “Nothing more, nothing less?”  This seems like more or less.

            “It just means we shouldn’t consider the matter completely closed and stop looking for criticisms/refutations. ”

            This is wise because of human fallibility.  But it’s not to the mutual exclusion of faith.

            “There is no means to settle who is correct…”

            You meant to say who is not yet wrong, right?  There is a big difference between “correct” and “not yet wrong.”  

            “faith makes things worse because instead of studying astronomy and finding an asteroid, perhaps in time to divert it with a nuke, we would spend our time and energy praising God, or the sun, or the giant turtle upon whose back the world rests, for the sunrise and die oblivious, with the (false) feeling of certainty that the sun will always rise.”

            Or inventing calculus… or discovering genetics…  or sequencing the human genome…  

            • jason

              “It’s usually said that we can’t know false beliefs.” … “You keep saying that as if it’s in the dictionary that way. You know it’s not, right? I don’t really want to keep saying I don’t agree with this characterization. Mathematicians don’t usually operate this way. Scientists don’t usually operate this way. Laypeople certain don’t.”

              You are correct in stating that my definition of knowledge is not standard. The standard – which I suppose the above is the closest you’ll get to stating explicitly – is that knowledge is “justified true belief”. And as I’ve said previously, that definition of knowledge does require some form of faith.

              ” It should be plain to anyone that human beings are not capable of infallible certainty without some radical changes.”

              Good, so we agree on fallibility. It may not be obvious that you’ve just refuted the standard definition of knowledge, “justified true belief.” Deutsch says it better than I can:

              [BEGIN QUOTE]
              The misconception that knowledge needs authority to be genuine or reliable dates back to antiquity, and it still prevails. To this day, most courses in the philosophy of knowledge teach that knowledge is some form of justified, true belief, where ‘justified’ means designated as true (or at least ‘probable’) by reference to some authoritative source or touchstone of knowledge. Thus ‘how do we know…?’ is transformed into ‘by what authority do we claim…?’ The latter question is a chimera that may well have wasted more philosophers’ time and effort than any other idea. It converts the quest for truth into a quest for certainty (a feeling) or for endorsement (a social status). This misconception is called justificationism.

              The opposing position – namely the recognition that there are no authoritative sources of knowledge, nor any reliable means of justifying ideas as being true or probable – is called fallibilism. To believers in the justified-true-belief theory of knowledge, this recognition is the occasion for despair or cynicism, because to them it means that knowledge is unattainable. But to those of us for whom creating knowledge means understanding better what is really there, and how it really behaves and why, fallibilism is part of the very means by which this is achieved. Fallibilists expect even their best and most fundamental explanations to contain misconceptions in addition to truth, and so they are predisposed to try to change them for the better. In contrast, the logic of justificationism is to seek (and typically, to believe that one has found) ways of securing ideas against change. Moreover, the logic of fallibilism is that one not only seeks to correct the misconceptions of the past, but hopes in the future to find and change mistaken ideas that no one today questions or finds problematic.
              [END QUOTE]

              Reading this, you may be tempted to simply drop the “justification” and say that knowledge is only “true belief”. Yet such a truncated definition fails to make the highly relevant distinction between guesses and knowledge. I may believe that out of 1000 fair coin flips exactly 527 will come up heads. If we do the coin flips and get 527 heads, that doesn’t mean I “knew” that there would be 527, even though my belief happened to be true. Likewise an astrology reader may predict that I will come into some significant money in the new year. If I do, it doesn’t mean the astrologer “knew” it, even though his belief also happened to be true.

              Since we can’t drop “justified” from the standard definition, it means the standard definition of knowledge is wholly incompatible with human fallibility. If you recognize human fallibility, which you say you do, then you must reject the standard definition of knowledge as “justified true belief”. That doesn’t necessitate that you accept mine. Feel free to offer your own, and we’ll see if yours is both compatible with human fallibility and better than mine.

              ““we have a good explanation for why and where the sun will rise…”
              Didn’t you say, “Nothing more, nothing less?” This seems like more or less.”

              I can understand why you’d have that impression. However, it is neither more nor less. A good explanation is an answer to the criticism that the theory lacks an explanation. That’s a criticism I could apply to, for example, the theory that in 1000 coin flips we’ll get 527 heads. Now if the person who believed that theory were to explain precisely how he was able to control the outcome of each flip in such a way as to guarantee 527 heads…and his explanation made sense…then the criticism would no longer apply and we might agree the person really could know there would be 527 heads rather than it being a lucky guess.

              ” I dare you to confess to your wife and kids that you aren’t actually certain about any knowledge, including how much you love them. ”I haven’t yet refuted the claim that I love you, honey…” ”
              Apart from the intended shock value of violating entrenched social conventions, I think if you reflect on this a bit you’ll agree that the relevant question for my wife isn’t whether I’ve refuted the claim that I love her, but whether she has. Both real and fictional human stories are replete with examples where love is professed but not real, and also where love is real but not professed. Only she can rightly judge for herself whether I demonstrate love for her or not.

    • Tip O’Neill

      >”Yes it does, because those folks have no concept of the message of Jesus, nor Buddha, nor any avatar. ”

      Actually I think I have much more of a concept of the message of Jesus and Buddha than the Pope and 90 percent of those who call themselves “christians”.

      I can’t see Buddha urging children to join the Marines, for instance. 

      You are correct that there is “oppositional behavior” going on, but the opposition arises not out of a theological dispute, but out of the evil perpetrated in the name of christianity. 

      • http://pointmantucson.yuku.com/ Michael Patrick Brewer

        So who then will defend your right to freedom of thought? Newt? I will go with the Marines. They will let you sleep at night … in peace.

        • Pacific Babe

          Excuse me but why have you decided to inject the marines into a conversation about how atheists feel about Xmas?  I’m more interested in your pride to hold on to the myth of christianity and how missionaries have value when they corrupt the vulnerable to the point of taking a hammer to their head?

        • Tip O’Neill

          >”So who then will defend your right to freedom of thought? ”

          I think you need to take up your objection to “the message of Jesus and Buddha” with them.

          I’m just pointing out that it is “christians”, not atheists, who have no concept of the message of Jesus or Buddha.
           

    • Pacific Babe

      Pray tell Mr. Brewer, why does anyone need a concept of the message of Jesus, nor Buddha, nor any avatar.  Or are you suggesting that fairy tales and myth have value?  B/c I too do believe that Dr. Suess and others like him have created value for society, but it is more beneficial to tell people the truth. Dr. Suess was always presented as “a story”.  I have no issue with some bible stories being taught, provided they are recognized as myth with a lesson to be learned. These fundamentalists have taught Ugandans that they know “the truth” when all they know is garbage.  They might be able to recite 1000 bible verses, but they have no basic understanding of evolution and human compassion.  You really are proud to be like these fundamentalists who beat a gay person to death with a hammer?  Is that what you want children to learn?  That IS what they are learning in Africa and other similar poverty stricken countries. They look to the skies to find a sky fairy that simple never has existed, so they end up hurting others for NO WORTHY REASON.  I’m sorry, christian missionaries need to go.  They need to be replaced by secular organizations who will teach compassion and skills.  They don’t need to be taught that a person who is gay is different yet still needs to be respected, they need to learn from birth that all people are different, have value and all need to be respected.  Anything I do that you do not approve of, does NOT affect you.  People will judge me on my merits and nothing less.  I do what I want to do, when I want to do it, and I’d like to think that whether or not you approve, no one would take a hammer to my head.  How would you like to live in constant anxiety in Uganda as a gay person knowing tomorrow might be your last day on earth b/c of what christianity teaches?
       
      I honestly hope you paid attention to what both Jason and Tip wrote below.  They might make you a better person.  Nothing in the bible will.  Babe
       
       

      • anon 3

        “ have no basic understanding of evolution and human compassion.”

        What you were saying about eugenics?

        • Pacific Babe

          You’ll need to explain yourself Anon3 cause I have no clue what you’re trying getting at … You speak in codes that I’m sure must frustrate your wife and children.  Here’s what I said “They might be able to recite 1000 bible verses, but they have no basic understanding of evolution and human compassion.  You really are proud to be like these fundamentalists who beat a gay person to death with a hammer? ”
           
          I can only assume that you like Mr. Brewer are fine with missionaries who teach that gay behavior is against a mythical god and therefore they should all take a hammer to the heads of gays.  I assume you taught the same sort of compassion to your little flock and I’m confident you’ll pass that to your children.  How many lies did you toss around over the holidays Anon 3?

          • anon 3

            “I can only assume…”

            exactly. 

            • Pacific Babe

              And that means what Anon3?  It doesn’t let you off the hook … you are accountable for teaching christians that basic human pleasures are sinful when sin does not and can not exist. That’s the whole missionary + christian agenda and you bought it hook line and sinker … well that, and collecting money from the church congregation for candlesticks. We all know how important money is to the church!   If one of your boys is gay will you pray away the gay or just warn them that most living christians will want to beat the crap out of them or drag them behind P/U trucks? People on my team will not react way. You can tell your gay or straight son that we want them to enjoy their life however they care to live it and not one of us will harm them.  It’s because YOU have taught twisted logic to vulnerable people who have a difficult time sorting out right from wrong that they resort to taking the law into their own hands.  You are responsible for the murder of abortion doctors, the deaths of women who have used coathangers to abort a fetus,  the deaths and beatings of gays, and you are responsible for the suffering of amputees and those with  terminal health disease because it is YOU who have taught others that there are sins and suffering is dutiful. Where is your compassion?  You are cold, callus and genuinely a really horrible person based on your responses here.   Did you learn to behave that way in buybull study?  You’ve failed to demonstrate an ounce of compassion in ANY of your responses. The only compliment I can make is that you’re a smart ass and sometimes it can be funny. You’ve failed to grasp any of Jason’s responses to you.  I care about people who have lost their lives or livelihoods because of what christianity teaches. Do you have any idea how many poor people I met in my career with hoards of children who every week tithed 10% of their income to a sky fairy?  Guess what? The banks foreclosed on many of those people and now they are at a homeless shelter … where is the church?  Their kids needed food, shoes and books but the church kept intimidating them for more and more money.  Really sick.  Christians have PRETEND morals, PRETEND faith and PRETEND love of a mythical god.  When a tribal person in Africa thinks a gay person engages in sinful sex or a woman looks at a man in which they judge is a sinful way or a woman aborted a fetus sinned, they feel they have a duty to defend the all-knowing sky fairy, so the best thing they can think to do is to take a hammer to the sinners head.  All of that comes from your lousy book and the instructions that you and other christians continue preach to vulnerable people. Am I to forgive the stupid christians who misunderstood the missionary?  Am I to forgive BREWER when this sort of action doesn’t offend him and he’s proud to claim he’s a christian?  I lift my middle finger to that idea!  YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE for the harm that comes to women, gays and children because you don’t teach morality, instead you teach your perception of a sin and that jesus and a sky fairy need protection.  You teach HATE, pure and simple.  No matter how christians try to spin it, it comes out as HATE.
               
              Brewer are you reading this?  You bet I’m still really angry!  What is it that you said earlier?  … I’d be a terrible mother?? and how did you arrive at that?  Is it because I have compassion when christians don’t?  I think lousy parents are like Anon3 who intentionally lie to their children, intimidate them with a hell or Abraham story, and choose to remain pridefully ignorant.  I think lousy despicable people are like Anon3 who too willing oppress women and gays.   This response might have been to Anon3, but I blame every christian, liberal or not, black or white, gay or straight for the suffering that’s occurred b/c they think there is “SIN”.  Get real.  Grow up!  Let the law take care of anything that is criminal, teach morality by introducing young people to moral and ethical friends, introduce morals thru good books, fiction or non-fiction and keep creation mythology out of things or if you must teach mythology, be honest and tell the kids what it is … a myth!  It’s time for religion to die.  Please if anyone knows of a buybull burning, I want to be the first in line!  There is nothing that could make me prouder than to watch that crap BURN!

    • anon 3

      “In all the parables of Jesus there is virtually nothing oppositional. It is a message of unconditional acceptance.”

      Are you kidding?

  • J

    LOL  you people have issues…..

  • http://pointmantucson.yuku.com/ Michael Patrick Brewer

    No kidding. Pacific babe can not possibly be either pacific or babe. She is clearly one angry chick.  If you read all of her posts would you want this pacific wave as your Mom?

    • Pacific Babe

      LOL … Of course I’m angry MPB.  I’m angry because idiots like you think you’re a great parent when it’s okay for you to hammer the head of a gay person until he no longer breathes.  I’m angry that you try to convince others they can buy their way into heaven if they’ll just give up 10% of their income so the church can get those new candlesticks.  And, I’m angry to think that sick people like Anon3 exist who will hand women coathangers rather than allow them a safe abortion.  I’m angry when women continue to be oppressed in this nation and other nations … Do you read the nsp?  Have you seen that women are still being stoned just because they’ve looked at a man the wrong way?  I’m angry that your religion teaches people that gays are substandard and therefore it’s okay to abuse them.  I’m angry that I and anyone else can’t make their own decision to end their life with dignity rather than having to SUFFER as your very sick religion teaches.  I’m angry that RELIGION teaches many to find a cure thru prayer rather than seeking medical help.  I’m angry because idiot christians fight stem cell research so that those with Alzheimers, Parkinson’s etc won’t have a better chance at life.  I’m angry that idiot christians want creationism taught as thought it is fact … It’s a myth!  Get over it!
       
      So I thank you for acknowledging my anger and giving me another opportunity to point out how idiotic it is to grasp at nothing and pretend it is something.  Religion has NO solutions to heal the world.  It’s oppressive and ignores that which it doesn’t care to deal with.

  • Chris Deliah

    Someone above pointed out that an idea should be judged on its merit, not on its source. Which is true; though a polluted source can often be an indicator.
    Sexuality is one of the very powerful forces that is too important to be left up to myth, religion, avatars or what have you. The old morality of restriction (picked up by Christianity but not unknown in most other major religions today) is particularly troublesome in the modern, congested world. Repress something, and it will find a way out, at least statistically. Hence the sexual abuses that have plagued the Roman Catholic Church and also some Buddhist monasteries. This is a separate issue to whether the ‘religion’ is authentic or good or not. The morality is wrong.
    In the olden days, control a person’s sexuality and you had control of the person – very useful is certain situations. For instance, if a spiritual hermit did not want to be constantly bothered with thoughts of sex, he or she could voluntarily emasculate (or in exceptional cases, sublimate) that part of themselves. Even more handy for political and business regimes disguised as religion. Realising the changing times, some cults (political and religious) mandated that sex is ok if you are one of the faithful. A bit like the sex within marriage rule that bolsters so many religions. The family unit, whatever its merits, also being a useful unit that can be politically controlled and, with benefits/handouts to the unit, far more manageable than free-spirited single people or non-procreating (homosexual) units.
    We all decide to believe in something – we believe in hope, our children’s future, the goodness of man, or our ability to succeed if we work hard or earn that degree. Belief is a powerful psychological tool. When belief is micromanaged by religious movements then there is less room for a scientific approach to self-improvement (one of the main aims of religion) or community welfare (another stated aim, which often fails on account of the imposed morality or sexual restrictions of the religions).
    It’s perfectly ok to believe in a non-existent god. An imaginary hero can be as useful psychologically as a real or historical one. But examine the purity of the image and everything associated with it. If it is impure, re-make it in your own eyes or find a new one. But if you call your image ‘Jesus’ (as many evangelicals do without the slightest recourse to history or even an accurate knowledge of the bible), then you will also be liable to a backlash from the community of believers and priests that also use that name in their own image.
    A problem with Xmas, to get back on topic, is that the whole mass of humanity – that worships or pays some sort of lip-service to someone or other that they call Jesus – comes together in a cross-national celebration of sorts. The result is that underlying fictions are reinforced. The priesthood gains in power from the mass turn-out (whether to mass or just mass-consumption). It gathers tremendous psychological force.
    If it didn’t, religions that committed as many atrocities as our ‘modern’ ones do would all be banned, the same as any other movement that provided a fertile ground for immoral acts. But given the token acceptance – and some good PR in the form of altruistic or philanthropic deeds – sensible moves to do away with such cancers will continue to struggle. One day the struggle for good will succeed – but it may take a few generations yet!

    • Pacific Babe

      Thanks, I agree with all your comments but one … It’s perfectly ok to believe in a non-existent god.  It’s NEVER okay to believe in a non-existent god.  For instance, we think this imaginary god might keep Anon3 from murdering someone and it might accomplish that, but the downside is that his belief system (and Michael Patrick Brewers) means that it’s okay to hate gays, oppress women etc etc.  It’s time to eradicate religion and it can’t happen fast enough for me.  Like you, I do believe the struggle for good will succeed in a few generations, but until then we’ve got to keep pushing forward for that to happen.