Comments on: Assisted suicide and illegal immigration

By: Patrick O

Patrick O — Wed, 29 Jul 2009 21:16:06 +0000

Perhaps you should write a little more clearly.
Some readers might think that if you are “expressing concern” that “”it is a slippery slope we need to really be looking at.” you might be opposing legalization of assisted suicide.
You state” “Should we force people to keep living who don’t want to? Thorny questions”
I see nothing “thorny” about such a question, and the fact the you don’t immediately dismiss with moral outrage the idea of forcing people to suffer against their will tells me clearly where you are coming from.
And whether you are self-aware enough to recognize that it is a “religious Issue” or not, it is. You simply have internalized a religious view of life to such an extent that you aren’t aware of the source of your prejudices.

If not, then

By: reneeschaferhorton

reneeschaferhorton — Wed, 29 Jul 2009 19:57:59 +0000

where did you get the idea that I am advocating a law outlawing assisted suicide? I never said that. I said it is a slippery slope we need to really be looking at. Please show me in my posts the exact words i used that gave you the idea that 1. this is solely a religious issue and 2. a law needs to be passed against it.

By: Patrick O

Patrick O — Wed, 29 Jul 2009 19:39:03 +0000

No you aren’t talking about pressure and you dishonestly refuse to acknowledge that – you are talking about a law forcing your belief upon others.
I pressure people to become vegetarian, since I believe it is both morally and scientifically better for both them and everyone – but I am not trying to pass a law outlawing meat-eating. There is a difference.
I’ve worked a suicide hotline and many people who are suicidal are indeed suffering from drug or alcohol problems or mental problems – but the anti-suicide laws you advocate have no place in their minds or this debate – they are planning on jumping off a bridge or putting a shotgun in their mouth and tehy don’t care about your law.
The laws that you are defending only affect people who are NOT mentally ill but who rationally wish to die with dignity for their own reasons.
You are advocating for a society which forces them to find illegal, and often more painful and undignified, ways to end their lives.
It is no different from any of the other “laws” which (despite your denials” are intended to enforce “christian morality”.
You can make alcohol or being gay or birth control or abortion or suicide illegal, but those laws dont prevent people from being gay or having abortions or committing suicide.
It only criminalizes them and makes their suffering greater.
If you don’t think everyone should live by your rules, then stop trying to make your rules the law.
Advocate and persuade all you want to – but don’t use the law to take away my right to decide for myself how I chose to live, or die.

By: reneeschaferhorton

reneeschaferhorton — Wed, 29 Jul 2009 19:29:21 +0000

leftfield: First, I’m sorry for your loss; suicide isn’t considered a violent crime but many consider it violence on those left behind. Second, not that interesting that we can come to different POVs in spite of similar experiences; its just kind of the wonder of life! Third: I’m not blaming the victim. I must really not be making myself clear. Let me try again: If someone wants to kill himself, it is most likely because he is mentally ill (or, secondarily, the risk of pressure from the young/mid-age on the elderly and infirm to accept being “assisted” out of life). Ergo, society – all of us, not the government – fails when we let that person slip into a crack and never come out. WE are to blame. We need to reach out and help. You sound like the folks over at Sojourners or the USCCB in your arguments against war and for the poor! I’m right with you.
I have never once inferred or suggested that I believe in substituting God for medicine or depending on faith healing. God isn’t here – but he/she has placed US here and WE are the people who are supposed to heal/help/support each other.

Important example: fifteen years ago, I got a call from a woman who asked if I would PLEASE come talk to a young mother who had postpartum depression. The woman making the call had got my name from a priest who knew I knew alot about depression and various treatments. This young mother was refusing to go to the doctor because some idiot had told her that if she had enough faith God would heal her. (GRRRR). So, I went to this woman’s house, having never met her, but knowing one thing was true: My prior experience and (dare I say it?) suffering could be used for good b/c I could, like no one else who knew her, relate to what was happening to her. Because I was a person of faith, she would trust me, because that is where she was coming from. Because I was a mother who had walked in her very sad shoes, she would trust me, because I knew what was happening to her. And BECAUSE I WAS WILLING TO GO, I could help her. Long story short, I got her to agree to go to a doctor, she called me every day for the next four weeks as she adjusted to medications (which was very difficult to deal with) and when I saw her two months later, I literally didn’t recognize her. She saw me at a bowling alley with my kids and ran up and hugged me and I had no idea who she was – she looked so HAPPY.

So, if you got a call like that, about a stranger who needed help, I ask you: Would you go? That’s what we need to deal with – people’s relative inability/unwillingness to help each other.

By: reneeschaferhorton

reneeschaferhorton — Wed, 29 Jul 2009 19:11:38 +0000

Patrick: I still disagree. You are right, in Somalia, women kill themselves in honor killings b/c they’ve been raped. Is that right? Is that good? Is that honorable? Or is that PRESSURE? That’s what I’m talking about – pressure. If you want to off yourself, I believe most likely, you are mentally ill. That’s not a religious belief, but a psychological one – the first thing doctors ask people who seem depressed/anxious is: Have you thought of harming yourself or others? There’s a reason for that and it ain’t religious. I don’t think everyone should live by my rules. I’m just bringing up a topic for discussion and I do think it is exceedingly dangerous that we, as a society, might pressure people (handicapped, elderly, chronically ill) to kill themselves so WE, the younger, the healthier, the greedier, can have a “better” life. Yes, there are religious groups that want the world to live only by their rules – that’s theocracy, and I’m completely against it (thus why I live in the USA and why I write about keeping religion out of schools, etc.) But when it involves life and death, maybe we, as a society, need to think about it.

By: leftfield

leftfield — Wed, 29 Jul 2009 17:53:58 +0000

Well said and my sentiments exactly. I wish I could make my point as clearly and succinctly.

By: Patrick O

Patrick O — Wed, 29 Jul 2009 16:10:05 +0000

Sorry but fail.

Although you claim no religious motivation, in many other cultures suicide is considered honorable and moral – it is your religious bias that considers it wrong.
As a consequence you express so much “concern” that people might be “pressured” to end their lives that you are willing to use the force of law to “pressure” those who wish to do so humanely NOT to.
You can’t have it both ways – either a person has the freedom to live and die as they choose, or you want to use the government to force them to follow your moral code – whether you admit that such a code is based in your religion or not.
It is no different from “christian” attitudes towards alcohol or birth control or abortion or being gay – basically people who are not content to live their own lives according to their own moral code, but who insist that everyone else live according to their book of instructions.

By: leftfield

leftfield — Wed, 29 Jul 2009 04:13:47 +0000

Well, we have something in common then. I have lost two first order relatives to suicide and one second order relative to suicide. Similar experiences, and yet we come to different POV’s on this issue. Interesting.

You mentioned your prime concern being that people not commit suicide to avoid being a burden to others. Here again, I agree that this is shameful, but I would not put the blame on the victim or label their actions as wrong. No, here I would put the blame directly on our collective failure to provide medical care regardless of ability to pay. And, by association, I would put the blame also on those who support a system that rations health care based on the ability to pay. Why is it that there is always money available when the ruling class wants to invade another country, but the same people cry poverty when it comes to caring for the citizens of this country? Yes, those deaths are deplorable where treatment is available but withheld. Support from friends and family is important, but is not a substitute for professional treatment. The “lord” will not heal them.

By: reneeschaferhorton

reneeschaferhorton — Wed, 29 Jul 2009 00:04:05 +0000

Idonyo: I am not for prolonging life artificially, but assisted suicide is about ending life artificially. There’s the natural way, where you sign a living will that says you don’t want to be brought back with the paddles, don’t want a feeding tube, etc.

By: reneeschaferhorton

reneeschaferhorton — Tue, 28 Jul 2009 23:59:52 +0000

Thanks for providing the clarification, Leftfield, however, your examples all points to depression – which was pretty much my point. While depression can have many causes, it still winds up being depression. And when depression gets really bad, suicide begins to look like the light at the end of a very, very dark tunnel. As a society, we can help people NOT feel burdensome, useless, etc., by reaching out and helping each other more. As for the high moral ground, if I gave the impression that people who commit suicide are not entitled to the same consideration and respect as everyone else, that was unintended and I’m not sure how you got that impression exactly. I will reiterate: My concern (and I’m not alone in it, obviously) is that people will come to feel that they MUST accept suicide to “unburden” those around them. The stats from Oregon, mentioning that a full third of those taking assisted suicide do so because they don’t want to be a burden, bear this fear out. We as families, friends, society, need to do a better job helping people with depression, period. We need to do a better job accepting mental illness for what it is – an illness – and getting it treated so people don’t do the most unnatural thing in nature = kill themselves. As for you thinking that I’m full of “built-in cultural bias” and presuming to have the moral high ground by saying that offing healthy people is questionable in a civilized society – you’re way off base. I have acute awareness of depression and its many faces, as both my mother and my uncle took their own lives.