Tucson Citizen.com

Jon Justice goes after Granny

by on Feb. 15, 2010, under Politics
Tagging in New York

Tagging in New York

I don’t know if Tucson’s own Jon Justice has any children. If he does, I’m guessing they are not yet teens, because the parent of teenagers would be far less likely to comment as Justice did on this morning’s show about how grandparents (and parents, for that matter) can control teenagers all the time.

He was criticizing Tucson City Councilwoman Regina Romero for questioning a proposal to hold parents or guardians (including grandparents) of repeat taggers criminally liable for the graffiti these taggers stupidly throw up around town.

Anyone who has followed my writing knows I’m a hectoring scold when it comes to ineffective, lazy, do-nothing parenting. However, as someone who has survived the raising of four teens (three of whom are law-abiding, self-supporting young adults and one who is still in college and paying only half her way in the world), I can attest that even the most proactive, supervisory parenting cannot guarantee a kid won’t get involved w/ the wrong crowd. Does involved parenting LIMIT those chances? Absolutely. Is it a guarantee? No way. Why? Because you’re dealing with teenagers, who have the impulse control of a binge eater and the attention span of a goldfish.

Justice was going on (and on) about how parents and grandparents should take the “necessary action” to prevent their kids from tagging. Problem was, he never specified what this necessary action might entail – at least not during the 30 minutes I was listening. Does he think a rowdy teen, who has already proven through his actions that he could care less about the law, will just straighten up and fly right because Grandpa says so?

Should grandparents/guardians try to raise the kid well? Absolutely. Will grounding him or taking away his privileges keep an already troubled kid out of trouble? Probably not. I knew a woman who nailed the windows in her daughter’s bedroom shut and locked her door at night so the living-on-the-edge 15 y/old wouldn’t sneak out in the middle of the night. Guess what? The girl broke the window and left anyway.

Were these the most effective parents I knew? No – they’d spoiled the girl rotten when she was in elementary school and, once the monster was unleashed, they’d lost control. But it is an example of how parents can try hard with teens and still fail. The solution to troubled teens (and teens causing trouble) starts way earlier than the teen years and involves a lot more than saying, “No, you can’t.” Especially, IMHO, if you’re a senior citizen. I wonder if Justice was 65 or 70 and could remain fearless when faced with a strapping 16 y/o boy with a surfeit of attitude.

Before I had teenagers, I, too, saw things as very black and white: Parent does A and teen does B. That certainty flies right out the window when you’re in the thick of raising teens. Still, if the radio talk show host seriously believes punishing parents/grandparents for the criminal actions of their adolescent charges will cause those guardians to take the “necessary action” to stop the tagging, perhaps he should offer some solutions and suggestions as to what that action might be.

(A funny aside: Talking w/ one of our sons once about graffiti I said, “I just don’t get the point.” He explained taggers think they “own” a piece of property when they tag it, adding that he knew one who, pointing out his work on a freeway overpass, said, “That’s mine.” To which my son said, “No, dude, that’s still belongs the state.” Maybe what we need is education for taggers to understand the concept of “ownership”. :-) )

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  • Wayne B

    The point of the rule is that since the parents  have to pay, it is much more likely that they will in turn get that payment back from the teen in some way rather than just blowing it off.

    Plus a teen feels very adult and responsible, like “What I do is my business.” With this rule the teen will find out it’s not just his business.

  • Coe Settle

    I have raised teenagers and I totally agree with Jon Justice.  If your juvenile teenager get into trouble and breaks the law YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE for their actions as well as the child.  Stop wining about how some kids act up more than others and accept YOUR responsibility in the matter.

    • reneeschaferhorton

      I don’t think it is whining to say that some kids are more trouble than others … and I believe that parenting IS definitely to blame but by the time the kid gets dumped on grandparents, it is a little too late. You throw Granny in jail b/c she isn’t able to keep Junior in the house at night or away from aerasol cans, what good would that do?

  • tiponeill

    Justice would attack Romero no matter what the “issue”. The radio blowhards make “issues” out of anything so long as they are attacking non-wingnuts. Preferably attacking people of color and females, of course, so in Romero he has a two-fer

    • reneeschaferhorton

      I agree that he goes after her all the time w/ few specifics. He resorts to name calling, which is what people do when they can’t think of an intelligent, cogent argument to back up their opinion.

    • Jerry Krueger

      So Romero should be immune from attack because she is a Hispanic female? Watch a few city council meetings on channel 12 and see if she utters a single intelligent statement. She can barely talk, and inserts “umm” several times into every sentence.

      • tiponeill

        So Romero should be immune from attack because she is a Hispanic female?
        Of course not – for a Republican anyone who isn’t an old white christian male should be attacked incessantly. That’s their entire reason for being.

  • Jim Tredway

    Justice is right on!  Parents need to know what their children are doing, and be responsible for their actions!  I am the parent of a Teenager,  and I take responsibility for what he does!
     
     

    • reneeschaferhorton

      And Jim, are you absolutely 100 percent certain you know where you kid is 100 percent of the time? I applaud you for taking responsiblity for what he does … I tried to make it so if my kids messed up the responsibility was their’s, but I always told them that whatever they did reflected on our family name and so they should keep that in mind. Sometimes they did, sometimes they didn’t … and a couple of them have had to learn some hard lessons the hard way. But I think we all have to do that growing up.

  • Wally

    Jon Justice nailed it.  It’s a parent’s responsibility to know who their child is spending time with and what they are doing.  If the child decides to tag someone’s property, the parent should pay the cost to clean it up.
    Parents need to accept responsibility for the decisions that their children make.  If they make the wrong decision, like tagging, the parent should be handling the discipline.  Too many parents let their kids do what they please.
    If you’re going to allow your kids to roam without supervision, you should be responsible for their actions (since they can’t be held accountable until they turn 18).

    • reneeschaferhorton

      I agree that parents should be held responsible – but the responsiblity has to start way earlier than tagging age. In fact, the responsiblity comes before you decide to become a parent, but sadly, the parents of many of these JDs are far from adequate parents. maybe they don’t have parenting skills. Maybe part of the consequence should be parents having to take parenting classes.

  • Mark B. Evans

    A much more effective way to combat graffiti is a vigorous graffiti abatement program, which the city has cut.
     
    Giving the community the power to report graffiti as soon as they see it and have a team of city workers immediately dispatched to eradicate it is far more effective than arresting parents for their rotten kids behavior.
     
    Taggers get gratification from seeing their tags. If their tags are erased within a day of the tag, they get frustrated and stop; it’s no fun anymore.
     
    This, along with robust youth parks and rec programs, community policing, juvenile offender referral programs and others, have been proven effective in numerous communities across the country. But one of the first things governments do when money is tight is cut these programs. Then bitch about all the graffiti.
     
    Locking up and/or fining parents is a stupid way to stop graffiti. It’s been tried and failed.
     
    Kozachik needs to puts this tattered page back in the How-To-Be-A-Good-Republican playbook and think of something else. Perhaps he should call Indio, Calif., and ask them how to create an effective graffiti abatement program.

    • JH Ram

      How about when the parents provide the paint? You made  sense until your last paragraph with your partisian tirade. At least the “republican” Kozachik is trying to do something about the problem.  Democrat Romero’s answer was to sponsor and promote a graffiti painting day on a wall on city property.

  • Cheryl Palen

    I am with John-
    And Mark too.
    Good parenting begins really early.  If you do it “right” you will have responsible teenagers/young adults.
    I am all for orphanages too as it seems that “parenting” is a loosely used term anymore. 

  • JH Ram

    Good for Jon Justice. I know a parent who actually bought paint for her kid and friends to tag with. Wanted to be the “cool” mom. When the kids got in trouble, she ran to Barbara LaWall’s office and Peter Hochuli (a sorry excuse for a prosecutor) and claimed that she was a victim. Although they knew she had bought and provided the paint for the kids, they did nothing to her and charged the kids with felonies. Fortunately the local judges are much smarter and wiser than the county attorney’s office. Let’s see if the county attorney has the cajonies to chase after adults, and not just juveniles.

    • reneeschaferhorton

      I really get aggravated by parents like you mention. I knew parents who provided pot, beer and condoms for prom nights!!! ARghhhhhhhhhhhhh. And when my kid couldn’t go to the party and I explained to the parent why, she said, “Well, you know it is better than if they go drink by themselves.” Parents have forgotten how to be parents. Interestingly enough, when my daughter had to call us from a date when she left a movie to go to a restaurant, or whatever, she was apologizing to this guy she was with for the embarrassment of calling her mom, and the guy said, “At least your parents care where you are.” So, unlike what parents may think, kids actually like limits and they aren’t that thrilled with “cool” parents. Not in the long run, at least.

      • tiponeill

        And when my kid couldn’t go to the party and I explained to the parent why, she said, “Well, you know it is better than if they go drink by themselves.” Parents have forgotten how to be parents.

        How typically condescending of you – parents who don’t follow your religion are bad parents, as opposed to parents with different values ?
        Personally I think parents who actually encourage their kids to participate in hate groups like churches or the Boy Scouts or ROTC are “bad parents” – but I realize that it is because they have different values.
        Those parents may have put firm limits on their children too, just not the limits that your church encourages.

        • reneeschaferhorton

          Tip: I didn’t say anything about religion. Parents providing their underage children with alcohol – and other peoples’ underage children w/ alcohol – happens to be against the law, not against religion. My parenting rules did not come out of a religious background, they came out of observation. My kids didn’t do scouts or ROTC for similar reasons that you call them “hate groups.” But the primary point is, you’re off topic here, don’t you think? You apparently think no one should “judge” another person, but the fact is, we have laws, we have rules, and parenting experts have suggestions that are backed up by research. So, yeah, if a parent refuses to raise his/her child, and that kid (like many I’ve seen in my teaching practicums) has the reading level of a 3rd grader in 9th grade, already is on drugs (sometimes provided by parents) and is in a gang – yeah, I’ll say that parent didn’t do his/her job. he/she abdicated and should refrain from having more kids. Problem is, since mommy’s a meth head, she doesn’t really notice when she’s getting pregnant again. If that is condescending, then I am completely guilty and have no problem with it. People should not have kids if they aren’t willing to act like adults and give their kids a fighting chance in this world.

          • tiponeill

            If that is condescending, then I am completely guilty and have no problem with it.
            It is condescending, and I know that you have no problem with it.
            I didn’t raise my children to believe that sex was sinful, I think it is good parenting to encourage your children to use condoms and not have out-of-wedlock pregnancies and I think the law  forbidding hisgh school graduates from having a beer in their own homes, rather than on the road, is a stupid one.
            And as a parent that doesn’t make me irresponsible – I would argue those parents you disparaged were more responsible than you, but you cannot see that since you are so immersed in Papa Razi’s values system.

          • todskl

            ROTC is in no way shape or form a “hate group” and neither is any version of the scouts.  And if you think that any version of the scouts IS a part of a hate group, you better not have any girl SCOUT cookies anywhere in site. High school graduates are generally over the age of 18…they can don a uniform and defend your right to be condescending, but you don’t think they should be able to have a beer in their own home….nice. Let them go out with friends, drink in a desert somewhere, and kill a soldier in a drunk-driving accident on the way home from kicking the crap out of some scout because they are part of a hate group.

  • Aaron

    Mark, you hit it right on the head.  Graffiti abatement is very effective.  At one of my previous jobs, I was responsible for keeping the warehouse in order.  Our outside walls were getting tagged almost every other night.  We decided that we would check every morning, and we were to have any graffiti painted over by 10 am.  It didn’t take long until the tagging simply stopped.  The place went literally years without getting tagged again.
     
    As for the proposed policy – first thing I’d like to know is how many taggers are actually caught.  From what I understand, it’s extremely rare that the cops can catch one.  The abatement policy is the way to go – it cleans up the problem and does good things for the quality of life in the city.

    • reneeschaferhorton

      Mark and Aaron – but do you REALLY think it is that taggers will give up as their stuff is covered over? From what I read it sounded like they just move down the road.

      • Aaron

        Renee, if there’s a good abatement program, that’s usually not a problem.  If the city or county gets tags covered over quickly, the taggers don’t tend to bother.  They’ve got nothing to show for their sneaking around, and they only have so much paint.  Taggers used to shoplift paint quite a bit, but that’s gotten a lot tougher as many stores keep the paint locked up.  In the case of the place where I was working, they’ve got either stolen paint or a little allowance money that they’re buying paint with, while we had a commercial account with the paint manufacturer.  They’re going to run out of paint long before we do.  They also can’t show off their work to their friends when it’s covered up quickly.  When the city and county governments are helping cover up the tags, there is little incentive to sneak around and risk getting caught for something that’s not even going to be around long enough to be seen.

        • reneeschaferhorton

          Thanks for the explanation, Aaron!

  • leftfield

    My wife and I have one child.  She is a much better kid than I could ever have hoped for and we are fortunate in that my wife does not absolutely have to work for us to make ends meet.  Still, taking care of our daughter seems like a full time job.  I don’t know how families with both parents working can manage. 

    • reneeschaferhorton

      You are 100 percent right.

  • todskl

    How many of you that claim “parent’s responsibility” actually look at your teen’s report card and the individual class absences? When your teen asks to go to the movies with a couple of friends, how many of you spy on them to make sure they are there for real. every time? The best kids in the world can get caught up with the cool ” crowd and make a stupid mistake. Here’s an idea….hold the teen responsible, and don’t let the parent get them out of the punishment. SUPERVISED probation for a year for 1st time offenders, with community service cleaning up tags…(should be really good for them to paint over a rival’s tag). Take their license until 18 for a 2nd offense. Jail terms steadily increasing in severity for each additional offense. Report the unpaid fines to the credit bureaus…..It will take time, but, eventually, maybe, JUST MAYBE they’ll get the clue that it just isn’t worth it. 

    • reneeschaferhorton

      That’s what I was getting at w/ Justice’s comments – do parents ALWAYS know where their kids are? That checking up on them is difficult (although you do sometimes catch them in a lie that way :-) ) and not possible (and I have major problems with that spyware parents are considering putting on a kids’ cell phone…) Your punishment idea is a good one, except, i wonder how many taggers actually have cars or licenses….

      • todskl

        you’d be surprised…and the ones too young for a car right now…won’t always be….take that goal away from them

  • criticallythinking

    Why does Jon Justice think this should only apply to graffiti?
     
     

  • Juan

    I find Jon Justice to not be very bright.

    I understand what his function is.  His mission is to generate audience for his radio show and radio station.  He’ll say and do anything he can to stir emotion, create controversy, and put his name out in the public.

    Its ridiculous however to think that he has anyone but his own interest at heart.

    He’s like one of those people you meet at a party who, no matter what intelligence you have or valid point you have to make, has to yell louder than you and thinks that his opinion is the only one that counts.  You walk away knowing what an narrow thinking idiot you just met and that its sad a person like that ends up in the corner with no one to talk to.

    All you can do is hope that someone like that wakes up one day and has the interests of someone besides himself to be interested in.  But the truth is that the likelihood of that occuring is slightly lower than winning the Powerball.

    • reneeschaferhorton

      :-) I like the way you say “to not be very bright.” Nicer than what Justice would say, which is “Idiot.”

  • Jill Arizona

    reneeshaferhorton – You say ” I agree that parents should be held responsible…”  – wasn’t that Jon’s point?  I think you’re a little confused.
    Good point, JH Ram – “Democrat Romero’s answer was to sponsor and promote a graffiti painting day on a wall on city property.”

    • reneeschaferhorton

      Jon was going after grandparents as well, and that was my point – it appears he doesn’t understand the conditions grandparents live in when they have custody of an offspring’s kid. But also, parents being held responsible when the kid is a teen is a little too late, we need to start earlier, but the things we need to fix the problem, as Mark pointed out above, always get cut by the “small government” guys  – cuts Justice promotes. We need a massive influx of funding for our schools so kids who are truant can be checked up on … we need a massive influx of money to social services so social workers can go into neighborhoods and try to get parents educated about parenting … we need smaller class sizes so teachers – and since i’m in a teacher training program i’ve seen this up close – can deal with the massive number of kids who are getting NO PARENTING AT HOME. But what do we do? We cut education funding over, and over and over again. We cut social services funding. We don’t even consider requiring people who give birth at any of our hospitals to attend parenting classes (don’t tell me how to raise my kid, mister!)…

      • Jill Arizona

        Oh, jeez, now you’re really losing it.  More money, more money, more money???  Did you pull that idea from Hillary’s  book  IT TAKES A VILLAGE???  I can see by your comments that you don’t have much respect for freedom and individualism and people like you think government is the solution.   I suggest you keep up with that teacher training program, because you sure still have a lot to learn!

        • reneeschaferhorton

          Jill, such a kind comment. Thanks for participating. I haven’t read Hillary’s book and I have plenty of respect for freedom … just not when it messes with the greater good. How do you propose that we fund education, Jill? Donations? Do you think that education is a bad thing?

  • Keith

    I guess we could shoot em with paintpall guns and then escalate from there ? Some of us have had it with you idiots !

  • todskl

    Final thought  from me….those of you who want to have parent’s bear the responsibility of your teen’s actions….remember that when they steal someones car, or commit assault, or steal a stereo/computer/tv, etc…when they are looking at jail….you go with them….


 

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