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European Socialized Medicine

by on Feb. 28, 2010, under Health

Here is some interesting reading about the myth of “socialized medicine” which those awful European governments impose on their people. 

By Trudy Rubin
Philadelphia Inquirer Opinion Columnist

One of the most bewildering aspects of the current health-care debate is the failure to learn key lessons from health systems abroad.

Conservative talk show hosts decry the alleged evils of “socialized medicine” in countries with universal health coverage; they warn grimly of rationed health care. Yet there’s nary a peep from Rush Limbaugh or Glenn Beck – let alone Congress – about countries such as Germany, France, Switzerland, or Japan, where coverage is universal, affordable, and top quality, and patients see private doctors with little or no waiting.

And, oh yes, their health costs are a fraction of our bloated numbers: The French spend 10 percent of GDP on health care, the Germans 11 percent, and they cover every citizen. We spend a whopping 17 percent and leave tens of millions of Americans uninsured.

If you want a very readable short course how European systems really work – as opposed to the Fox News version – take a look at The Healing of America: A Global Quest for Better, Cheaper, and Fairer Health Care, by T.R. Reid, a former Washington Post foreign correspondent. You might also watch a fascinating 2008 Frontline series, available online, in which Reid was an adviser: Sick Around the World: Can the U.S. Learn Anything From the Rest of the World About How to Run a Health Care System?

So far, the answer seems to be “No,” not because there aren’t valuable lessons, but because politicians won’t relinquish their myths about European health systems. Reid takes up that task.

Myth No. 1, he says, is that foreign systems with universal coverage are all “socialized medicine.” In countries such as France, Germany, Switzerland, and Japan, the coverage is universal while doctors and insurers are private. Individuals get their insurance through their workplace, sharing the premium with their employer as we do – and the government picks up the premium if they lose their job.

Myth No. 2 – long waits and rationed care – is another whopper. “In many developed countries,” Reid writes, “people have quicker access to care and more choice than Americans do.” In France, Germany, and Japan, you can pick any provider or hospital in the country. Care is speedy and high quality, and no one is turned down.

Myth No. 3 really grabs my attention: the delusion that countries with universal care “are wasteful systems run by bloated bureaucracies.” In fact, the opposite is true.

America’s for-profit health insurance companies have the highest administrative costs of any developed country. Twenty percent or more of every premium dollar goes to nonmedical costs: paperwork, marketing, profits, etc. “If a profit is to be made, you need an army of underwriters to deny claims and turn down sick people,” says Reid.

In developed countries with universal coverage, such as France and Germany, the administrative costs average about 5 percent.

That’s because every developed country but ours has decided health insurance should be a nonprofit operation. (We once thought that, too, until private insurance companies began buying up nonprofit health insurers like Blue Cross and Blue Shield and converting them into profit-makers.) In France and Germany, health insurance is sold by private insurers, who can only charge fixed rates in the nonprofit health field, but can sell other forms of insurance for a profit.

These countries also hold down costs by making coverage mandatory and by using a unified set of rules and payment schedules for all hospitals and doctors. This does NOT mean a single-payer system or a government-run health system. But it does sharply cut health costs by eliminating the mishmash of records and charges used by our myriad insurance firms, who use all kinds of gimmicks to shift their costs.

A unified system makes it possible for France and Germany to use digital records; every insured person has a smart card that includes all his or her health information, further cutting the number of bureaucrats. U.S. companies oppose such efficiencies, Reid says, “because they spend money on proprietary systems and no one wants to get together on a common system.” Can we afford this stubbornness?

For those who think we could never make the switch to such systems, take note that Switzerland shifted from private health insurers to nonprofits in 1994. And it’s hard to see how we can cut costs without reining in our private health insurers.

None of these European plans have to be adopted wholesale. Yet there’s no sign we’re even examining them for useful lessons. Some U.S. senators on the Finance Committee bought Reid’s book, but have you heard anyone talk about European health systems? Of course not.

It’s easier to embrace our myths and pretend Americans know best about managing health care. But that’s the biggest myth of them all.

This opinion piece appeared in the February 28, 2010 Philadelphia Inquirer.



  • tiponeill

    It is political suicide for any US politician to admit that any other country can do anything better than we can – the myth of the “best country on earth” must be maintained at all costs, even if it costs the lives of our children. The voters demand it.
    Want some Freedom Fries with that column ?

  • Don Smith

    It’s easy to win an argument if you build a strawman to be your opponent…

    Conservatives in general (I’m sure there are some exceptions) don’t criticize socialize medicine as being evil—they criticize it for its many shortcomings.  Ask Britons about their National Health System; they”ll tell you plenty.  Ask Canadians—like the premier of Newfoundland—why they come to the US for lots of their treatment.

    If European medicine is so much better than America’s system, then why isn’t Obamacare sailing through the Congress?

    These countries also hold down costs by making coverage mandatory
    Translation:  they compel you to buy coverage, as part of a condition of being a citizen.  Those societies also value top-down state control more than we Americans do.  I must admit, though—it is easier to be efficient if you can get over that pesky “liberty” thing or that “federalism” thing…

    further cutting the number of bureaucrats.

    So…if America adopts socialized medicine, that will CUT the number of bureaucrats?  More likely it will shift them into the public sector—-where their union dues can then be funneled to the Democratic Party.

    and the government picks up the premium if they lose their job.

    How can we do that in our current national financial situation?

    For those who think we could never make the switch to such systems, take note that Switzerland shifted from private health insurers to nonprofits in 1994.

    Take note also that Switzerland is a tiny country with no need for a defense budget.  Why didn’t Trudy tell you that? 

    And it’s hard to see how we can cut costs without reining in our private health insurers.

    Try reining in the trial lawyers.  That will cut defensive medicine costs.

    No doubt there are many shortcomings with America’s health care system.  Certainly there are some countries out there with better systems.  (If you have a hegemon to defend you and your neighbors, you have more disposable income to devote to other things.)

    All in all, I think it’s clear that most Americans prefer the free market controlling their own health care, instead of benevolent bureaucrats in Washington.  Especially since those DC bureaucrats seem to waste so much money in their bureacracy, or funnel it to their political allies (e.g., unions, trial lawyers).

    • AnaNymous

      Personally, I don’t like capitalist insurance companies deciding what care and medicines I may receive after paying into their system & having to pay on top of that if, God forbid, I actually need the insurance.  So of those bureaucratic political allies, are multi-million dollar insurance companies as well.  But I’m sure you already know that

      • Don Smith

        Rest assured that, if you lived under socialized medicine, someone besides you would STILL pick your care and medicines for you—the government.

        But I’m sure you already know that.

        • medicareblogger

          Don, the point of the story (which you seem to have missed) is that having universal healthcare is not socialist, and there are very good examples (other than Canada and the UK) to look at where people have plenty of freedom to choose their doctors.  Germany, and Japan are very large countries where they have first-rate, non-socialist, universal coverage. 

          • Don Smith

            Well, Medicareblogger, YOUR story consisted of one sentence.  Trudy Rubin did the rest.

            I simply pointed out some of the many things that Ms. Rubin—and you—failed to mention in the story.

          • leftfield

            This is a little off the strict subject, but I resent the implication that socialism necessarily means “no choice” in health care or most anything else.  You’ve all been listneing to far too much propaganda.

          • Don Smith

            If memory serves, socialism doesn’t always own the means of production.  It does, however, micromanage economic life in its societies, through excessive regulation and government direction. 

            I think you’ll find that, in many Western European societies and Japan, government health care regulation is much more extensive than ours.

        • AnaNymous

          Oh I do, and hopefully it would not be a for profit agency, as it is set up now.  What’s really interesting, if you haven’t noticed, is you sir are the minority. (At least in this venue but I’m sure on a wider scale as well)  Do you actually have an argument as to why we should not all have healthcare, or are you just puffing your chest?

          • Don Smith

            Oh, I think I’ll point to those many polls of American citizens who overwhelmingly like our health care system.  Are they in the minority, too?

    • medicareblogger

      In the U.S. private insurance companies actually administer government programs.  Tri-Care, the military health system is administered by companies like Health Net and Humana.  They each have large contracts to administer the government program in different regions of the country.  And Medicare claims are handled through contracted companies. So government isn’t likely to add new, unionized government workers because the standard practice is to contract out government work to the private sector.

      And when  you say that “it’s clear that most Americans prefer the free market controlling their own health care….” I don’t know who you’ve talked to, but I have met many people who work for small companies, or are self-employed, or retired before 65 and are at the mercy of insurance companies and the free maket – and they are not happy at all. 

      The bills that have been passed are addressing people in this category, not people who have insurance through a large employer.  And the insurance companies have stated that they are happy to take everybody with no pre-existing condition exclusions – if everybody has to buy into the system.  And that’s the only way to cover everybody and bring down rates. 

      Insurance companies making large profits by denying people the care they need and have paid premiums for are one problem.  For profit companies (hospitals, imaging labs, and drug companies) are another problem that I don’t think is addressed by the bills that have been passed.

      • Don Smith

        So government isn’t likely to add new, unionized government workers because the standard practice is to contract out government work to the private sector.

        So, you’re saying that, if the federal government acquires massive new powers over the American health care system, we’re NOT going to see a significant increase in federal bureaucrats?  Who’s going to administer this big new system?  (On our behalf, of course).

        I don’t know who you’ve talked to

        It’s not who I’ve talked to—it’s who I’ve read about.  Specifically, all those people who, in poll after poll after poll, object to a massive government takeover of health care.  Health care which is micromanaged from Washington IS government health care. 

        I repeat—if there was a groundswell for the kind of healthcare that European nations have, then why is ObamaCare floundering?

        The bills that have been passed are addressing people in this category, not people who have insurance through a large employer.

        You’re not really asserting that the House or Senate health care reform bills have NO impact on people who don’t currently have good health care, are you?  Are you saying they won’t see their coverage change?  Their costs rise?

        I agree that compelling everyone to buy health insurance would lower costs.  But, again, you’re (seemingly) advocating a policy that would require American citizens to pay a fee simply because they’re citizens.  In comparison, the only people required to buy auto insurance are those who own and drive cars. 

        Your individual mandate solution would work—if it just weren’t unconstitutional.

        In the interest of finding some common ground here, I agree that Ms. Rubin has some good ideas for finding more efficiencies within our insurance industry.  IMO, if we remove the boundaries to interstate health insurance purposes, good insurers will achieve those efficiencies and our market will reward them.

        • tiponeill

          I repeat—if there was a groundswell for the kind of healthcare that European nations have, then why is ObamaCare floundering?
          Because a minority in the Senate have the power to stop legislation, under the current rules.
          Not because there is no “groundswell”.

        • medicareblogger

          Everybody pays taxes to support schools – even if they don’t have children.  It is called supporting the society in which we live.  And as it turns out, we are all supporting people who end up in hospitals without insurance because the cost is eventually passed on to us in taxes or health insurance premiums. 

          And your charge that the health care bills represent a “massive government takeover of the healthcare system.  If you saw Mark’s information it is clear that the government is already paying for most healthcare anyway.  And your government takeover jargon is straight from Rush and Glenn.

          • Don Smith

             And your government takeover jargon is straight from Rush and Glenn.

            Is there a “Rush Limbaugh” default button built into liberals?  One that trips an automatic Rush (or Glenn, or Sean) comment under certain circumstances?  Circumstances like, say, pointing out the inconsistencies and cherry-picking in liberals’ arguments?

            And your charge that the health care bills represent a “massive government takeover of the healthcare system.  If you saw Mark’s information it is clear that the government is already paying for most healthcare anyway.

            I’ve made it pretty clear—as has the majority of Americans (and Rush and Glenn and Sean!)—that they don’t want to see government’s role in American health care increase.  I take it that you do?

            Methinks you’re a single-payer advocate.

  • leftfield

    It’s too bad that the truth matters so little in this debate.  Myth #4 could be that truth is universal and eternal, when in fact, the truth in this country is whatever Rush and Glenn say it is at the time.  Truthiness is far more relevant to health care reform and the believers will not be swayed by the facts; rather by their fears. 

  • leftfield

    “If European medicine is so much better than America’s system, then why isn’t Obamacare sailing through the Congress?”

    Oh, come on, Don!  I haven’t gotten to the end of your argument, so maybe you’re saying this in jest and I’m missing the joke.  Ohterwise you are being willfully obtuse.  If you are serious, your question depends on the premise that if any legislation was good for the nation as a whole it would receive support from all parties in government, party politics be damned. 

    • Don Smith

      Leftfield, of course you won’t agree with my position.  It’s predicated on free market solutions, based on a foundation of capitalism.  You’re a communist, nicht wahr?

      • leftfield

        Don, there ain’t no more “free market” and, thus, no “free market solutions”.  It sounds very American and very tidy, but capitalism passed out of the free market stage sometime between the end of the Civil War and the turn of the century.  We then entered a stage known as “Monopoly Capitalism”; characterized by the development of trusts and monopolies.   We have recently entered into the stage of imperialism; characterized by the financialization and globalization of our economy.

        The term “Free Market” is misleading.  Who’s free?    

  • leftfield

    Medicare blogger, if you read Don Smith’s argument you will understand why people on the right object to a change in the current system of health care rationing (i.e. one based on ability to pay).  You will however, have to read between the lines. 

    Those societies also value top-down state control more than we Americans do.

    Translation:  The right prefers top-down control by unaccountable private tyrannies with no public responsibility or public oversight, i.e. corporations who care only about profit and return to shareholders.   

    So…if America adopts socialized medicine, that will CUT the number of bureaucrats?  More likely it will shift them into the public sector—-where their union dues can then be funneled to the Democratic Party.

    Translation:  Similar argument – socialized anything will lead to increased power and control by the party favoring business interests less; the party that at least pays lip service to the interests of the “common folk”.

    Take note also that Switzerland is a tiny country with no need for a defense budget.  

    Translation:  In any conflict between a defense budget that is greater than that of all the other countries of the world combined, the defense budget (and the military-industrial complex) must be the top priority.  One consequence of this is that there will never, ever be a time when the right wing says, “Oh yeah, things are pretty good right now.  We can now afford those social services that we argued against when times were tight”.

    Try reining in the trial lawyers.  That will cut defensive medicine costs.

    Translation:  This appears at first glance to be a reformist position, but the truth is that access to the court systems is one of the last places still available to the common man for redress of grievance.  Absent this, the power of powerful interests with unlimited political and economic resources will be completely unchecked, something the right wing strongly favors.  

    their political allies (e.g., unions, trial lawyers).

    Translation: those parties who stand in opposition to unchecked business and military control of your life.

    In the interest of full disclosure, Don should mention that he works for the military-industrial complex.  

     

    • Don Smith

      I proudly work for the military industrial complex.

      The complex that has kept Leftfield and his fellow thinkers confined to college campus faculty positions, dingy coffeehouse lounges and—most importantly—-out of any real power in the Free World for sixty-plus years now.

      No need to thank me

      • AnaNymous

        Wow so your healthcare is provided by the government!  So enlightening.  No need for thanks, OUR tax dollars provide for you and your family.

        • Don Smith

          Actually, my healthcare is paid for fully out of my private salary.  The federal government employs my company, so my salary does come from the taxes you and your family pay—and me and my family.

          As a contractor, the federal government can fire me anytime.  I have no job protections.  I don’t have a union watching out for me.  I have to prove my worth every day of the week.

          So…you’ve NEVER taken anything from the federal, state or local government?  Kudos to you.

          • AnaNymous

            Never claimed not to.  I just find it slightly hypocritical that you are willing to accept health care which is provided by our government, because not all employees offer an option.  Somehow I get the sense of self-righteousness

        • Don Smith

          OUR tax dollars provide for you and your family.

          So…policemen and firemen and teachers shouldn’t get healthcare?  They work for taxpayers, too.

          • Don Smith

             I just find it slightly hypocritical that you are willing to accept health care which is provided by our government, because not all employees offer an option.  Somehow I get the sense of self-righteousness

            Employees have the right to work wherever they wish.  If they value health care, they should develop skills so they can find work with an employer that offers good health care.  As I did.

             Somehow I get the sense of self-righteousness

            I’ve no doubt you get that sense.  No doubt at all.

          • AnaNymous

            I understand you are not a part of my generation, mind set, etc. However, we are living in a recession!  Most people take jobs where they can get them nowadays!  You’re statements are dumbfounding.  Maybe if you went to college or a coffee-shop you would be able to reconnect to your fellow human.  Again you never provided any argument as to why this is such a horrible idea.  That’s your opinion!  Maybe when I cover myself in kevlar my skin will be as tough as yours.  I can only hope

      • tiponeill

        The complex that has kept Leftfield and his fellow thinkers confined to college campus faculty positions, dingy coffeehouse lounges and—most importantly—-out of any real power in the Free World for sixty-plus years now.
        Hint – even Canada is part of “the Free World”. It is only in the US that christian white males have maintained their power until Obama’s election.
        Which explains the tea partiers anger – they can’t believe they don’t hold the majority any more and to them the new majority seems illegitimate.
        (That’s why Don will keep claiming that the majority doesn’t want healthcare when in fact it is the old white men he hangs around with that don’t want it for anyone except themselves ;) )

        • AnaNymous

          I’d rather be on a college campus learning new ideas or in a dingy coffeehouse discussing the plights of the common man, than taking orders which challenge my morality while obtaining a traumatic brain injury.  But that’s me.  We can’t all be “heroes”

          • Don Smith

            No problem, AnaNymous.  You stay safe, comfortable and irrelevant in that classroom or coffeehouse of yours. 

            Your taxes pay my salary, and the efforts of me and the Soldiers I train keep you safe.

            I’m OK with that arrangement.

          • leftfield

            It’s “them thar new idears” that make you so dangerous to them. 

      • leftfield

        Based on your reply, I can only assume that you do not dispute my other points.  Are you feeling OK, Don?

        • Don Smith

          Left, I consider so many of your points so wacky that it’s pointless to try and refute them. 

          You and I are on different wavelengths and live in different worlds.  Thank God.

          • leftfield

            You and I are on different wavelengths and live in different worlds.  Thank God.

            True enough, Don.  You should already know though, that in my world and on my wavelength, faith in “god” is only a reflection of our spiritual emptiness.  Therefore, I see your god and raise you a Zeus with a golden calf kicker.

            BTW – I recently spent an evening in a room filled with Raytheon employees; all ex-career military people.  So, when you say we are different wavelengths, I really do know what you mean.  I was struck that conversations about weapons systems (a euphemism IMO) took place in a morally neutral atmosphere, as though they were talking about a new toaster they were developing. 

  • AnaNymous

    great article.  Hopefully it will bring some intelligence to someone!

    • leftfield

      I’d say it has a snowball’s chance in hell.

      • Don Smith

        I agree with Leftfield, but not with you AnaNymous. 

        Rubin’s article has a snowball’s chance in hell of changing many minds, because most Americans are very happy with their healthcare.

        If you don’t like the American healthcare systems, there are planes to Canada every day.

        • AnaNymous

          Dear Captain America,
          Have you heard of democracy?  Has it always been, take it or leave it?  I thought WE were the people who appointed officials to represent OUR issues and concerns to be addressed by OUR government.  If it’s an issue in the White House, it MUST be an ISSUE!  Maybe not for you, but nevertheless, it is.  Sometimes it’s nice to think about your fellow common American in a positive light instead of acting like everyone who doesn’t agree with you is your enemy.

          • Don Smith

            I think democracy is a great thing.

            It was democracy that elected Scott Brown in Massachusetts.  To the (ahem) Kennedy seat.

            Sometimes it’s nice to think about your fellow common American in a positive light instead of acting like everyone who doesn’t agree with you is your enemy.

            Oh…did I hurt your wittle feewings?  Or, are you looking to have your feelings hurt? 

            How did I call you my “enemy?”

            Thicken your skin.  Politics is a contact sport.

          • leftfield

            “I thought WE were the people who appointed officials to represent OUR issues and concerns to be addressed by OUR government. ”

            Dear anaNymous, you are going to spend a lot of your adult life being confused and disappointed if you believe this.

        • leftfield

          You know what, I am happy with my health care.  I have a job and insurance for my family(although as someone who is self-employed, I do get the dirty end of the stick on premiums). 

          The difference here, Don, is that I care also about all those others out there who are not getting their health care needs met.  Are you saying that those people don’t matter, or are you saying that somewhere over the rainbow the “free market” system is going to finally get around to taking care of them?   

          • AnaNymous

            Thank you leftfield, I don’t “believe” that’s how it is, however that was what I was taught in my silly little government provided education.  There are a lot of things to be disappointed with in this world, including the ignorance spewing from a certain man on this page.  I may not be able to get through the “thick skin” of such a character, but maybe your last comment will spark a tiny bulb of humanity in what ever’s left of his soul.

          • Don Smith

            I may not be able to get through the “thick skin” of such a character, but maybe your last comment will spark a tiny bulb of humanity in what ever’s left of his soul.

            So, does this mean I’m not getting a Christmas card from you this year?

  • tiponeill

    Thicken your skin.  Politics is a contact sport.
    Says the blogger who censors posters in his column for inappropriate language :)

    • Don Smith

      Accusing US troops and the contractors who work for them of “murdering women and children willy nilly” gets you banned on my blog.  Proudly, and with gusto.

      I censored you because you accused American troops of murder.

      • tiponeill

        All you that have posted your rants show that we have a serious problem in mindset in this country.
        You must have confused me with another person that you censored. You censored ME because I had the temerity to mention that Republicans impeached President Clinton for getting a blow job.
        Evidently the “language” was too sensitive for your tender “contact sport” persona.
        You don’t have to keep telling us how proud you are to be a crypto-fascist in every post either – we know that :)
         

        • Don Smith

          I didn’t censor you for using bad language; I just deleted that one post.  (Do you use that word a lot, tip?)

          I censored you for the little gem about American troops which you apparently forgot—but Google and I didn’t. 

          See below.

      • tiponeill

        I censored you because you accused American troops of murder.
        P.S. – Just as an addendum. I am certain that I have never used “willy-nilly” in my life, tough guy,, but having lived down the street from William Calley I can assure you American troops HAVE been guilty of murdering women and children – since you mention it.
        Perhaps it can be mentioned in the blog of someone with less tender skin for contact sports.

        • Don Smith

          Oh, tip—Google is NOT your friend!

          Just as an addendum. I am certain that I have never used “willy-nilly” in my life, tough guy
          ………………………………………………………………………
          http://tucsoncitizen.com/fortbuckley/2010/01/01/is-it-important-for-america-to-be-liked-if-so-why/#comment-677

          tiponeill
          January 3rd, 2010 on 11:01 am

          Is it your opinion that US forces seek to “murder innocent women and children?”  Seems so.

          Not an “opinion” – an admitted fact (referred to in military language usually as “collateral damage”).

          Unlike the US, other countries are subject to international law and might actually be tried for crimes against humanity, so the French DO have more of a motive than Americans do.

          But still, your argument that the motivation for wanting to do the right thing is craven seeking approval is no different from the schoolyard bully claiming that you won’t beat someone up because you are “chicken”.

          It allows you to ignore the morality of your own actions, and even portray them as “heroic” – unlike those “chicken” liberals and countries who are more hesitant to murder women and children willy nilly.
          ………………………………………………………………………….

          :)

          • Don Smith

            Screen-captured for posterity…and, in case you happen to forget again.

          • tiponeill

            Ouch – I am so embarressed that I actually used the term “willy nilly”
            Nevertheless you have established (thank you google) that this is not the post that was censored (it is still there) and the reason for your censorship was instead your objection to the language when the Clinton impeachment was mentioned ;)
            Google is my friend :)
             

  • leftfield

    Don sez:  It was democracy that elected Scott Brown in Massachusetts.  To the (ahem) Kennedy seat.

    Don, I happen to know that Scott Brown was not born in this country, is not a legitimate citizen and is therefore not qualified to hold office.
    I want to see his birth certificate.  I mean the real one, not some fake one that he and a thousand others conspired to manufacture knowing that one day he would run for office.

    Sound ridiculous?

  • Don Smith

    Folks, I’ve now run out of time to respond tonight.  Schoolwork, two-year-old, housechores….you know the deal.

    I will have time on Thursday (and perhaps Wednesday) nights to respond. 

    If you’d like, I’m willing to do a little reading as part of this discussion.  If there’s something you’d like me to read—besides Das Kapital, Left—I’m willing to try.  Send me the link

    Thanks in advance for your patience; until Thursday night…

  • leftfield
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  • Mark B. Evans

    These are stats from a column I wrote about the sense of a single-payer system:
    As for socialized medicine, about 120 million Americans, or about 1 in 3, already get their health care or insurance paid for or subsidized by taxpayers:

    59 million Medicaid recipients
    44 million Medicare recipients
    10 million state and local government employees
    6 million U.S. military veterans
    2.5 million active U.S. military personnel
    And 2.3 million federal and state prisoners

    Adding the rest of the country to the list is only fair.

    • deserttree

      Mr. Smith?  I’m not one to insult people and feel everyone has a right to his or her opinion.  But, I truly wonder what planet you are from. 

      Our country is fractured, broken and bankrupt.  We do not take care of our people.  We are a war mongering nation that lives and thrives on fear and spin mastered words to control its people.   We value bombs  over its people. 

      Why is it that the so called greatest nation on earth cannot put its people first?  Why is it that we insist on wearing blinders and doing things as we always have regardless?  Why are we so fearful of any change and anything that would move this country forward instead of backwards?  A truly great nation would put its people first.  The U.S. doesn’t.  To assume that this nation cannot fall is believing in a fairy tale. 

      People like Mr. Smith love to give their opinions about healthcare and other issues in this nation.  Yet, I have yet to read one thing he and others like him have said that give a plan or that put out there a solution to our problems, most especially the healthcare issue.  

      Mr. Evans put the numbers up there.  I’ve talked to so many people opposed to any so called “socialized” medicine.  Yet, they are almost always an individual in one of the numbers listed in Mr. Evans list – the “socialized” benefit list.  When I ask them to cut up their medicare card and get their own insurance like I have to do they give me a dumb look or simply spew anti-Obama rhetoric.  It absolutely amazes me. It saddens me.

      Nearly everything we have in this country from our roads, fire and police, education, parks and on and on IS socialized.  So why is it that this word causes such fear when we talk about healthcare?  Why is it that those receiving socialized medicare benefits don’t seem to GET IT that they are receiving a form of socialized medicine?!

      I’m not saying that the U. S. has to follow any other country’s plan or implement anything exactly as another country has.  But, we can learn from them, take the good and make something that will work for all in this country.  Are we not smart enough to do that?  Are you saying that our elected politicians are unable to come up with a plan to help everyone?  Are we that stupid as a nation that we cannot fix this problem?  Cost is not the problem.  Its the infighting, bickering, political ranting and so on that is the problem. 

      I have  relatives that lives in Europe  They are not even citizens there and they get all their healthcare needs met.   They don’t wait for care and they don’t get anything “rationed”.  They pay a  small fraction financially as compared to what the average American pays here.  They said they may never come back to the states.  

      My own physician here is married to a person from a country in Europe.  They pay for a healthcare plan from Europe rather than pay for insurance in the U.S.  He said if a member of his family gets a serious health problem that they would fly to Europe for care.  And this is a physician in this country folks. 

      My family is a family of 4.  Our insurance rates went up (way up!) in November and we will now pay nearly $16,000 out of pocket for health insurance.  We are “self employed” which means there is no company to share the costs.  We are the company.   The deductible is so high that we pay out of pocket for everything – office visits, lab tests, prescriptions.  We go without many things considered preventive care due to cost.  Between auto, home, health and liability insurances, we are beyond insurance poor.  And, the biggest hit to us is the healthcare premiums!  The alternative is to drop insurance and roll the dice and hope no one gets a major healthcare problem.  Should someone get sick we risk losing everything we have worked our lives for.  And what stinks is that this can happen in this country even WITH insurance.

      So, Mr. Smith and others like you, try just once putting yourself in the shoes of others.  We work hard and we pay our taxes, we served in the military and we run our own business.  Yet, we are suffering greatly due to our healthcare system.  Mr. Smith, why not put real solutions in writing instead of just your opinions?  Why not give actual numbers and your ideas for solutions!

      Why is it that we elect politicians and they do nothing other than worry about the next election?  There is something seriously wrong when an elected official has just one year of a 4 year term to do anything because then its on to raising money for the next election.  They are so scared to say or do anything due to the fear of not getting reelected.  I’d like to put all of those politicians in a round padded room and tell them they cannot come out until they have a solution to the healthcare problem in this country. 

      Time to go.  Have to do more of that “workin”, “prayin” and “hopin” that I don’t get sick before I am old enough for Medicare.  I’m scared and I’m frustrated and I’m angry.  My country has failed me and I’m really tired.  I just don’t know if I can keep my head above water financially and keep working this hard just to pay insurance premiums.

      • medicareblogger

        Deserttree:  You should write a similar letter to Senators Kyl and McCain.  Your family story as a small business owner or self-employed person is important for them to hear.  I doubt it will do any good, but they need to hear from you and so many others.
        I recently posted on this blog that people like you and others I’ve met need to create their own “tea party” group to try to make your stories known and your frustration heard.  But you are probably too busy working to pay the bills to spend time at town hall meetings and demonstrating outside the offices of Congressional Reps.  But how can we get the stories of tens of millions of working people heard?

        • Don Smith

          Deserttree:  Be sure to tell Senators Kyl and McCain what taxes they should raise or what federal programs should be cut.

          Also be sure to to tell Senator McCain that bit about us being a warmongering nation.  That will score points with him.

          • melatr7

            Don Sorry you have had to defend the US and yourself against almost all of these other posters. Beyond the fact that you and I are on the same page with this health care mess, I appreciate that you have a true devotion to our country, our constitution, our liberties, the uniqueness of the US and personal responsibility. I can’t hang around after I post this, but you know you are not alone- and in fact are in the majority. The left always wants to point to Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security as socialized programs that work.  And yet, in regular years the most common time you hear any of these programs mentioned in the news, the word ‘fraud’ is next. This administration admits that THESE PROGRAMS ARE RIFE with fraud, waste and abuse (FW&A).  They also say these programs are unsustainable.  If you check, you will find the date that these programs are expected to founder.  WELL!  Then WHY would we, as a nation, think that our government would do any better with a new massive nationwide program to cover every man woman and child in this country?  It is beyond reason.  The billions and billions of dollars of FW&A in combination with the de-funding of (then unnecessary) Medicare, Medicaid, SCHIP, COBRA, DRA, FEHBP, EMTLA and Part D in the current programs are sufficient to cover this WHOLE NEW AGENDA- if our government would bend to the task of finding it and reclaiming it instead of firing IG inspectors who try to do just that.  They tell us that we already pay twice as much as anyone else, why don’t they find THAT money first? Now to the OTHER numbers.  Just covering those without under our current circumstances.  Regardless of any false claims, because of EMTLA, NO ONE in this country is going without healthcare- including illegal aliens.  If we have 305 million people in the US, and 30 million are so-called ‘uninsured’, there are 275 million who are handling it all and are happy with what they’ve got.  Of the 30 million, at least 18 million are illegals.  The Senate bill says it DOES NOT include coverage for illegals.  If that is so, we only need to cover 12 million.  (So why the need to bill us all for 30 million, for 8 years and only 4 years of coverage?)  $5,000 individual policy per year times 12 million is $60 billion.  (Group insurance for these should be much less.)  But even using THAT figure for 8 years, it is 480 billion.  Straight up.  The CBO has scored the Senate bill at over a trillion, not including doc fix, not including etc, etc…  (all the other crap in this bill).  WHY? The answers aren’t palatable to those leaning left.  Power.  Government expansion.  Unionization of free workers.  With our health care in their hands, they have the extended benefit of telling us what we can and cannot do, may or may not eat, have or may not have, spend or may not spend.  The Constitution will fail, and the free people of the United States (you know, the place half the world wants to immigrate to) will cease to exist.Last thought- add all the people in the UK, France and Canada, DOUBLE them and that’s approximately the number of people in this country.  Double their problems and you can see how foolish this conversation is.  While those who work in the US average 1800 hours and two weeks of vacation a year, France has 35 hour work weeks and 8 weeks of vacation per year.  Wouldn’t you also consider this a possible reason for good health?  They walk a LOT and buy fresh food instead of pre-packaged stuff and fast food.  They are the size of ONE of (our states -who EACH have their own Constitutions, BTW- more legal problems).  Canada works an average of 1750 hours and about 1/8th our population, the UK’s average work week is about 1550 hours…  Focusing only on the results of their health care system without considering their lifestyles and other things is disingenuous.  We are apples and oranges.
               Keep fighting the good fight Don, you are appreciated.May God bless the USA- again.

      • Don Smith

        Hi, deserttree—greedy Mr. Smith here.  That was quite a rant—feel better? 

        You want to know my solution for the health care funding mess?  Simple:  people should stop expecting the government to provide their health care!

        Why?  Because the government can’t pay all the bills.  We’ve known that for some time; we just don’t want to admit it.

        Many advocates of current plans for large-scale health reform, of the kind we see in the current House and Senate bills, are really hoping for single-payer health care.  They see this as a Trojan horse to get it.

        We are a war mongering nation that lives and thrives on fear and spin mastered words to control its people.   We value bombs  over its people. 

        Yes, that sentiment will play well in a town full of veterans…

        Mr. Smith, why not put real solutions in writing instead of just your opinions?  Why not give actual numbers and your ideas for solutions!

        1.  Start with this plan, from Rep. Paul Ryan of Wisconsin, the GOP’s leading spokesman on health care reform:
        http://www.house.gov/ryan/issuepapers/healthcareissuepaper.html
        2.  Warn people to actually heed  the clear warning signs we’ve had sitting in front of us since 1992, when Ross Perot highlighted our national budget woes in his Presidential campaign.  We don’t have the money to sustain all of our entitlement programs.  Many, if not all, will likely have to be cut back.  So, plan appropriately.  Pick a job that offers healthcare.  Take out catastrophic health care insurance when you’re young and insurable.  Take out long-term care insurance or a health care supplemental plan. 

        If you want an easier solution—move to Europe.  Where, apparently, health care is wonderful and they don’t waste money on defense.  They don’t need to—the bomb-loving USA keeps them safe.

    • Don Smith

      It may be fair, Mark—-but how do you plan to pay for it?

  • kevinp

    What is wrong with this arrangement?
    I’ll hold a job, and pay for my family’s health care. YOU hold a job and pay for your family’s healthcare. And the people who do not want to have a job do not have any healthcare.
    If YOU (or I) want to pay for someone else’s healthcare, you (or I) make a …..wait for it…..CHARITABLE DONATION.
    If there is not enough charity, then it would indicate that as a society, we have decided that healthcare for those who do not contribute is not a priority.
    Imagine that, a society that values and rewards work, and shuns freeloaders.
    Seems like the only people who wouldn’t like that are, well, FREELOADERS.

    • medicareblogger

      Kevinp:  You are tough.  I hope you never lose your job and your health insurance and then lose your house and your life savings.   If such a terrible thing were to happen to you, the charity of others will not be enough for you and your family. 

      By the way, if I don’t want to pay for your kids’ schooling, do I get a break in my taxes? Or if I don’t want to spend billions of dollars each year on our military, can I take that out of my taxes too?  We’re all in this together whether we like it or not.

      • kevinp

        It’s not like I was born with this job.
        If I were to lose it, I would find another one.
        It has nothing to do with being tough. It’s pragmatism.
        For the record, I would have no problem with a bill that provided healthcare for EVERYONE up to the age of 18. I would happily pay taxes to make sure every child was covered.
        At 18, get a job, and pay for yourself, and by all means, donate to a charity to cover others who can’t, or won’t. It’s your money. Please do that.
        I fail to see why that idea offends anyone.

        • Entropy

          The problem is youre dealing with around 300 million people in the USA. As rich as you may be, there is a working poor man flipping burgers, turning bed sheets, or cleaning toilets who cannot afford healthcare.
           
          The poor get sick often, much more than their rich counterparts. If you let the poor to die of disease and sickness, then who’s going to turn your bed sheets when you vaction? Who’s going to clean the public toilets? Do you actually think those seniors on medicare use it because they are actually spending their money for $200k RVs or trips around the world? WHy do you think children get free (tax payer funded) vaccinations? Eventually even sickness and disease will trickle upward to the rich and the healthy, never mind the social and financial ramifications. Are you willing to eat a burger from somone who has the H1N1 simply because he can’t get a few days off and can’t afford the hospital care? Maybe you won’t, but someone else will.. and they get sick. DO you have any idea how close we come to epidemcs EVERY year? Do you know the annual death rate from the common FLU? It’s in the THOUSANDS annually already!
           
          You are living in a bubble to beleive that it’s jsut a matter of survival of the richest. Or to beleive that is masses of poor die, it won;t affect you in the slightest. Or even that there is so much charity that we can do away with public funding forever. You have to be real. Take a walk outside. There are 300 million people in this country. Are you telling me that by sacrifices even a qaurter of them won’t have some affect on our country?

        • Don Smith

          I would have no problem with a bill that provided healthcare for EVERYONE up to the age of 18. I would happily pay taxes to make sure every child was covered.

          Actually, we already have that.  It’s called S-CHIP.  (State Children’s Health Insurance Program).  It covers you into your early 20′s, if your family can’t pay for your care.

        • deserttree

          I have a true story for you.  Listen carefully Kevinp.  I met a man through an aquaintance that loved to spout off about those lazy no good people feeding off the tit of the government.  He loved to point out the lazy people that won’t work and how tired he was of paying for their welfare.  He constantly noted that he has a job by golly and they can too.  He pays for his family and healthcare and by golly they can too.  Well, 18 months ago he got in a car accident.  He has since lost his job, has run out of benefits through Cobra (which he complained about the cost!), can’t work due to his current medical situation, house was foreclosed on and his wife is working a minimum wage job just so they can eat.  No benefits where she works.  She was a stay at home mom and never expected to have to work outside the home or be the caregiver for her spouse.  This man is now just plain angry and is receiving assistance for rehabiliation services, medical care, housing and so forth.  That same thing that he said he would never use, never need and always put others down for.  So, Mr. Kevinp, I do hope your life goes along swimmingly and that you never are in need of help from others.  Life has a way of throwing people curve balls.  Good luck to you.  I have to go now.  Have to do that work thing again in which I pay and pay and pay for overpriced health insurance that covers zip.

      • Don Smith

        medicareblogger, you seem to be implying that people are cruel or insensitive if we don’t agree with your apparently-strong desire to increase taxes or our deficits to pay for Medicare.

        Manyof the wonderful countries you mention (Germany, Japan) are running huge budget deficits.  The European Union is teetering on the brink of economic disaster, largely due to unsustainable benefits obligations.

        To what extent are you willing to mortgage our kids’ future to pay for our healthcare?  They’re the ones who will deal with these huge deficits—not us.

        (Yes, Rush told me to say that.)

  • Don Smith

    In the interest of full disclosure, I wish the US government could give every person in this country all the healthcare they want.  I wish ill on no one.  Even tiponeil.

    I do, however, think we need to pay our bills.  Now and in the future. 

    The American people seem unwilling to absorb large hikes in taxes or deficit spending in order to pay for better national health care benefits.  Therefore, we need to lower our expectations for the kinds of health care that government can provide.

    It’s that simple.

    • Don Smith

      It also seems as if many advocates of expanded govermnent involvement in health care are way too eager to compel the rest of us to comply with their wishes.

    • tiponeill

      Therefore, we need to lower our expectations for the kinds of health care that government can provide.
      I don’t see why we can’t expect to have as healthcare that is as good as Canada or every other modern industrialized country. The US is not a third world country and we can afford it.
      Not only afford it – it would acutally SAVE money which voters might understand if they weren’t bamboozled by Republican fear mongering about Big Government.

  • leftfield

    Because the government can’t pay all the bills.  

    Why is it that no war is ever too expensive, but all social services are?

    • deserttree

      Ditto:  I’ll leave it to you to discuss common sense and rational thinking to Don.  He’s so far out of touch with reality that nothing anyone says will enter his thick head.  But, you seem to be able to put him in his place quite nicely.  Thank you leftfield.  The only thing I would add is that it has been shown over and over and over that if we just get rid of healthcare waste, make insurance affordable to all and stop making so many of those darn bombs we could not only pay for a healthcare system for everyone but also pay down the deficit.  Now, isn’t that a new concept for ya Don?  Gotta work.  Bye

      • Ferraribubba

        Hey deserttree: Why is it that your kind has to demean and try to belittle anyone that disagrees with you? It shows a lack of class.
        Have you no same, sir?
        How would you know whether Don is in touch with reality or not? and as far as you knowing the thickness of his skull, LMFAO! Not even the Tipster or his protege’ Dion, with his self-proclaimed ‘World Class Education’ knows that. Do you Tipster?
        Yer pal, Ferrari Bubba

        • tiponeill

          Actually I don’t think ANYONE is TOTALLY in touch with reality, but we all have models of how the world works – some closer to reality than others.
          The ones farthest from reality (among the “sane” and excluding schizophrenics) are the extremely religious and ideological with paranoid overtones – like the Tea partiers.
          So Don isn’t THAT disconnected, but he’s close to them.

        • leftfield

          Actually  Bubba, while I have never question the thickness of your cranium,  your grip on reality has been a question for me from time to time.  I have always attributed it to an excess of Arkansas “Kickapoo Joy Juice” myself.  Others think it might be residual donut toxicity. 

          • Ted

            Why are you libs so much about name calling, I laugh at you guys.  You really do not see yourselves in a mirror at all.  I post all over the net get into some good debate but people like you well lets just say you will probably die alone while some cat or two cough up a hairball or two near your corps.  Had to do it, now don’t get me upset again.

        • deserttree

          Humm. Mr. Bubba:  Am I male?  Am I female?  Black, white, brown, religious or not.  Am I head of household?  Am I a female supporting my family?  Am I a male out of work?  You make a lot of assumptions there bubba.

          Oh, and yes, I’m very classy.  My “kind” seems to rile “your kind” because I always thought it was “your kind” that had issues and disagreed with “my kind” no matter what.   ”Your kind” always seem to belittle “my kind” .  You see?  That is why this nation is in the mess its in.  Division, division, division.  Its fractured, broken and people will not and can not meet in the middle.

          Well Bubba, you are going to miss me.  I have to go out of town for work and will be gone 10 days.  Yep, work, work, work to pay that insurance!  I just love it.

           

          • deserttree

            Ooooh, hey, I might even be gay. 

      • Don Smith

        you seem to be able to put him in his place quite nicely.  Thank you leftfield.

        Why Left, I do believe you’ve found a friend.  And he’s so CUTE, too!

      • Don Smith

        Ah… TC.com’s Gaston (Leftfield) had found his LeFou (deserttree).

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beauty_and_the_Beast_(musical)

        deserttree, I think Wikipedia’s got you nailed to a T.  (Check out their description of LeFou, under “Characters”).

    • Ted

      Becasue freedom is priceless, Cliche yes but i have faught and bled in some real s***holes, and I realy do appreciate my freedom.  Maybe someday when you do not have it and you are not one of the elite or certain religion you will understand it.  You more than likeley have always seen things through rose colored glasses and spend a couple of hours oif feel good time at the shelter and spend money on some free tibet bumper stickers that really mean nothing becasue the world that you want is actually what china is (get it!).  Spend that cash on some weed on teh street how much goes to the chinese goverment, taliban, afgahn, etc you donate to terrorism every day.

  • Ferraribubba

    Hey Lefty: I see that you’ve noticed who my real hero in life has always been. Fearless Fosdick, created by Al Capp, who also found the original recipe for Kickapoo Joy Joy Juice, not 10 miles from East Jesus, Arkansas. Paired with our fried gator tail and hush puppies, it makes a wonderful supper. Yer pal, Ferrari Bubba

  • Ferraribubba

    Hey deserttree: Even Motel 6s’ have media centers now. Free hook-ups and all that stuff. 10 days without you will be like 10 days without sunshine, my friend. Boo-Hoo! Hurry back! Yer pal, Ferrari Bubba

  • Ted

    I lived in Germany for 12 years and have been too many countries around the world and I can tell you without a doubt that America has the best medical Professionals, Schools and Emergency care anywhere in the world.  I dare any of you to spend some time in a European hospital, I have and it’s not nice.  I can tell you they keep cost down because Health Professionals are Government employees and the majority have jobs for life due to the intervention of the unions, Hospitals are also ill equipped and trained and managed one example that was stomped out by the EU showing its fault is in 2003 when the hottest summer in history hit Europe all medical facilities were severely understaffed and about 10000 people died of heat injuries.  Where were the staffs? On their negotiated union-government agreed vacations. For a European it is better to tell a “little lie” than let others see your faults.

    • tiponeill

      I can tell you without a doubt that America has the best medical Professionals, Schools and Emergency care anywhere in the world.
      Which does no one without health insurance any good.
      ON the ranking of healthcare, Germany ranks 25th, we rank 37th
      Nolte said the large number of Americans who lack any type of health insurance — about 47 million people in a country of about 300 million, according to U.S. government estimates — probably was a key factor in the poor showing of the United States compared to other industrialized nations in the study.
      Link