Tucsonans turned out in force last week to support postal worker jobs and protect the Cherrybell mail processing plant from closure.

Inside the Leo Rich Theater, a capacity crowd of more than 500 citizens listened to United States Postal Service (USPS) representative Brian McCoy’s dog and pony show touting plant closures and layoffs as the path to financial solvency for the USPS.

Outside, representatives from Jobs with Justice, Occupy Tucson, and unions chanted, waved protest signs and signed a petition to save local mail processing.

The main reason the post office is going broke isn’t the Internet or the number of postal workers, it’s the Congressional mandate requiring them to pre-pay employee retirement. Last fiscal year, the USPS lost $5.1 billion. During the same time period, they had a $6.9 billion surplus in the Federal Employee Retirement Fund.

Closing 250 mail processing plants nationwide and laying off 35,000 workers won’t solve this structural problem.

Moving from one-day delivery of local mail to two- to three-day delivery of local mail (as proposed by the USPS) won’t make the postal service more competitive; it will further decrease the use of first class mail and could lead to more calls for privatization.

Trucking mail from the city of origin to a regional processing plant and back again isn’t environmentally friendly and could be cost-prohibitive in the future.

For more details on the meeting and background on the postal service’s financial woes, check out my article in the Huffington Post: Occupy the Post Office? Tucson Postal Workers, Supporters, Fight Back Against Threatened Job Cuts.

Traditionally, war is a messy business– all that blood, sweat, and tears– not to mention danger, death, destruction, dismembered bodies, human suffering, nightmares, guilt, wasted taxpayer dollars, mounting deficit spending… you know the drill. (Pun intended.)

In recent years, the US military-industrial complex has made war less messy and less dangerous, at least for a select group of American soldiers. Drone pilots sit in secure bunkers and, armed with banks of sophisticated computer hardware, “fly” unmanned killing machines.

Drones– killing machines aimed at faceless targets– AKA fellow human beings– thousands of miles away.

No-muss, no-fuss drone warfare is no less deadly, destructive, or perverse than traditional war. It’s just easier, cleaner– just like playing the same violent video game day after day.

Representative Gabrielle Giffords, Tucson Mayor Jonathan Rothschild, and the Davis-Monthan 50 held a press conference recently touting Tucson’s magnificent good fortune to be included on a short list of three possible locations for a drone warfare base at Davis-Monthan Air Force Base. Oh, the joy.

In the Tucson Sentinel’s raw raw footage above and in KVOA’s edited news footage (here), Rothschild, Ron Barber from Giffords’ Office, and D-M 50 business boosters croon about job creation attached to the drone facility.

Of course, in the cheery news coverage, there is no mention of the moral implications of drone warfare or the inherent danger to any city that houses not only a major air force base but also a bomb-making factory and a drone command center. Is this old hippie, liberal Tucson? Really?

We already have a dearth of good-paying jobs in Tucson that are not connected to the military industrial complex. When Rothschild said job creation was going to be one of his top priorities, this is not what I had in mind.

Down with drones.

Give peace a chance.

Tucson Occupiers discuss nest steps on Dec. 22, 2011 after their eviction from Veinte de Agosto Park. (Image Credit: Pamela Powers Hannley)

Although it has been nearly a week since Tucson Police evicted Occupy Tucson from their Veinte de Agosto Park encampment, Occupiers have not folded up their tents and disappeared into the night. They continue to meet, organize, protest, and solidify the movement for 99% and against corporate takeover of our country.

Tomorrow– Dec. 28– will be a busy day of action for Occupy Tucson and its supporters.

Community Food Drive

From 7 a.m. – 4 p.m., Occupiers will be accepting people and pet food donations at Veinte de Agosto (Congress and Church) or DeAnza Park (Stone and Speedway).

From the Occupy Tucson facebook page…

In support of Shaun McClusky’s upcoming “Take Care of Tucson” food drive to feed the hungry, Occupy Tucson announces a companion event to help him boost donations.

McClusky, who has called Occupy Tucson a “smelly stinky presence” and has said he hopes “TPD takes their unemployed asses to jail,” has been awarded permits by the City of Tucson to occupy Veinte de Agosto Park and De Anza Park on December 28.

McClusky is the founder of Rincon Ventures, a real estate company that acquires foreclosed homes at public auction. For the past several weeks, members of Occupy Tucson have been disrupting these auctions, held at the Pima County Courthouse. In November, Occupy activists held a competing event, auctioning off donut holes to the public. The boisterous presence of Occupy Tucson at these auctions has become an impediment to McClusky’s ability to do business.

So we are particularly pleased that Mr. McClusky is spearheading this community food drive, in that it demonstrates his solidarity with the hungry and homeless of our community, the segment of the 99 percent most severely impacted by corporate greed and corruption. Although Occupy Tucson does puzzle over the efficacy of evicting homeless people from their tents in order to make their lives better, we applaud McClusky’s good intentions and pledge to join him on December 28 to raise contributions for the four organizations he has designated as recipients: The Tucson Community Food Bank, the Humane Society, Cold Wet Noses, and the Hermitage Shelter.

Occupy Tucson invites its supporters to engage in a friendly hometown rivalry. Help us answer the question: which group of Occupiers will gather more food? Foreclosure profiteer Shaun McClusky, or the 99 percent?

Occupy Tucson urges our supporters to bring donations to Veinte de Agosto Park or De Anza Park from 7am to 4pm on December 28. Occupy Tucson activists will have a visible presence nearby to greet community members and accept donations.

Occupy the holidays!

Political Action Supporting Postal Workers

Following the food drive, Occupy Tucson, Jobs with Justice, and their supporters will gather at Veinte de Agosto Park at 4:30 p.m. for a rally to keep the Tucson Mail Processing Plant, which is threatened with closure. The rally will be from 4:30 – 5:15, followed by a march to the Leo Rich Theater, in the Tucson Convention Center complex, where there will be a 6 p.m. public hearing about the proposed closure. Closure of the Cherrybell facility will not only mean the loss of 400 good-paying jobs, it will mean dramatically reduced mail service for Tucson.

From Jobs with Justice and Tucson Area Local American Postal Workers Union…

The Postmaster General is considering eliminating Tucson’s postal sorting station at Cherrybell Stravenue.

This would mean all mail would be routed through Phoenix, even if it is going elsewhere in Tucson. It would also mean the end of overnight service from Tucson.

This proposal would cost the community approximately 400 (union) jobs, hurt local businesses that rely on the postal service, and harm seniors who receive Social Security checks and medication by mail. It would also put the kybash on those last-minute runs to Cherrybell Station to meet those midnight deadlines!

Tucson is the 33rd largest metro area in the country.

Even though the USPS has agreed to hold off until 5/15/12 for any more closures studies are continuing as well as public hearings. This is our only chance to make an impact. Even if you don’t want to go to the microphone we need to fill 511 seats.

Written comments can also be submitted (by post, not email!) to: Management,Consumer and Industry Contact, Arizona
District, P.O. Box, 21628, Phoenix, Arizona 85036-1628. [Emphasis added.]

Occupy Tucson showing solidarity upon their eviction from Veinte de Agosto Park on Dec. 21. 2011. (Image Credit: Alex Maldonado)

Throughout the day yesterday, Occupy Tucson posted calls to action on its  facebook page alerting supporters to a possible eviction that evening.

For a little more than two months, Occupy Tucson has maintained a continuous encampment downtown– first at Armory Park and then at Veinte de Agosto Park, after their first eviction by the Tucson Police Department (TPD). The Occupiers have never wavered in their demands for free speech and in their fight for the 99% and against the corporate takeover of the US.

Despite being one of the smaller Occupations in the US, Tucson Occupiers have suffered more police harassment than other Occupations. To the credit of the police and the Occupiers, there have been no violent clashes, but the Tucson Occupiers have received a disproportionate number of citations. Occupy Tucson citations are second only to Occupy Wall Street (1,359), according to the Occupy Tucson legal team, quoting data from St. Pete for Peace, an independent group that has verified (with two reliable sources) 5,425 Occupy arrests nationwide. Tucson has had 455 arrests according to St. Pete for Peace, but TPD has reported more than 700 arrests.

Occupy Tucson disappeared from downtown last night. Homeless but undaunted, what will be the next steps for Occupy Tucson?

UPDATE: Occupy Tucson will hold a noon meeting today (December 22, 2011) in Presidio Park in downtown Tucson to discuss next steps.

UPDATE 2: MoveOn.org sent out a message that there will be an Occupy Tucson General Assembly in Armory Park tonight (December 22, 2011) at 6 p.m.

Here is an eye-witness account of the eviction by Alex Maldonado, Veteran for Peace and Tucson Occupier.

On Wednesday evening [Dec. 21, 2011] at 7 p.m., during Occupy Tucson’s General Assembly, Tucson Police Department (TPD) Chief Villasenor interrupted the GA to announce that TPD would close Veinte de Agosto Park at 10:30pm tonight and wanted all occupiers out of the park.

A few minutes later, two TPD cruisers shut down Broadway and Church, followed by over a dozen TPD vehicles that encircled the encampment.

Flood lights were then set-up to give light to the entire park as occupiers began a second bug-out since the start of the occupation on October 15th.

Vehicles appeared, helping occupiers pack and move every item from the encampment to a safe location elsewhere.

The Veterans For Peace flag which has been flying over the encampment since the beginning of the occupation was lowered from the flagpole, yet a second time, but was promised to fly over the next encampment by the Veterans For Peace, who lowered the flag.

The TPD presence grew again at 10pm, when more TPD vehicles arrived with lights flashing. TPD cruisers, SUV’s, motorcycles and one pick-up truck had the park surrounded. Occupiers were finishing the bug-out and were, yet again, picking any and all trash from the park, leaving it better than when the occupation found it.

At one point, the occupiers stormed back into the park as TPD watched helplessly, and took some group photos with the statue of Pancho Villa in the background. Just as fast as the group rushed in, the group returned back to the “safe zone” which was the sidewalk.

Melissa Tibbals-Gribbin made a stand of her own, as she marched back into the park, stood atop a rock formation and held her hand in the air until TPD circled her, handcuffed her and took her into custody.

Occupiers then decided to sleep on the sidewalk but only after TPD imposed “a sleeping bag and covers only” policy for those few brave souls.

Five hours since the first two TPD cruisers shut down Broadway and Church, TPD finally left with only a small token crew to watch over the park for the remainder of the night.

Even though the occupiers were evicted yet again, spirits were high and a GA was already being planned for the next day. Occupy Tucson may be homeless tonight but tomorrow always brings hope for the movement and a new location to be determined.

The eviction of Occupy Tucson by Tucson Police. (Image credit: Alex Maldonado)

Image credit: Pamela Powers Hannley

When old timers talk about Arizona’s economy, they often refer to the “5 C’s”– cotton, copper, cattle, citrus, and climate. The “5 C’s” built Arizona, but how relevant are they in today’s world of limited resources?

At least 4 of the 5 C’s come with a high environmental cost, since cotton, copper, cattle, and citrus all use more water than Arizona can afford to use. This practice has led to the destruction of desert rivers and streams. Three of the 5C’s– cotton, copper, and cattle– also have destroyed our state’s vegetation and desert ecosystem.

According to a recent article in the Arizona Daily Star, a 6th C has emerged as an important player (no pun intended) in the state’s economic development– casinos. In fiscal year 2011 (July 2010 – June 2011), casinos took in $1.7 billion. .

Although copper ($5.3 billion) and climate (AKA, tourism, $17.7 billion) have continued to be blockbuster sources of revenue, 2010 revenues from cattle ($637 million), cotton ($206), and citrus ($34) paled in comparison to gambling.

What is missing from this article about revenue is cost. What is the environmental cost of  copper, cattle, cotton, and citrus? What is the cost to the state in tax breaks and incentives to the copper industry or businesses related to tourism? If revenues of these businesses are so high, what are they paying to the state for the privilege of doing business here?

And what is the true cost of gambling? The Star article quotes expert sources who estimate that 75% of casino gamblers are Arizonans. Yes, the tribes made $1.7 billion on gambling, but that means that everyday citizens lost $1.7 billion on gambling.

The old saying is: gambling is a tax on people who are bad at math. Gambling can be highly addictive. Compulsive gamblers can lose everything… houses, jobs, families, lives.

Is this rise in gambling revenues a good sign for our state’s well being? I think not. It only shows the desperation of Arizonans trying to eek out a living however they can in a depressed state with few opportunities for the unemployed and undereducated.

Instead of relying on the 6 C’s, Arizona should move to an economy built on the 6 E’s — environmental sustainability, education, electronics (AKA technology), equity, excellence, and economic opportunity for all.

Occupy Tucson encampment at Veinte de Agosto Park. (Image Credit: Pamela Powers Hannley)

Tucson City Attorney Mike Rankin offered Tucson Occupiers a plea bargain recently. At a legal meeting last week, we defendants heard the details of the plea bargain (which wasn’t much of a bargain). It included multiple levels of monetary penalties and community service depending upon how many tickets a person had garnered. With over 700 citations issued to fewer than 200 people, many Occupiers are facing serious financial and legal burden for camping in the name of free speech for the 99%. The defendants in attendance decided the city’s offer was not a good deal.

Occupy Tucson protesters during rush hour. (Image Credit: Pamela Powers Hannley)

Our legal team read a draft proposal as a counter offer. The Occupiers’ offer to the city included dismissal of citations and establishment free office space downtown for Occupy Tucson for one year in exchange for dismantling the encampment and dropping the federal lawsuit against the City of Tucson and city officials (plus other details outlined below). I spoke in favor of this proposal last week because I believe that the Occupy movement nationwide has to decide on next steps. Office space gives the Occupiers a place to organize and move forward with the causes that are important to the 99%– like fighting foreclosures and fighting against the corporate takeover of our government.

This is not the end of Occupy; it is the next phase.

Below is Occupy Tucson’s counter offer to the city. If you support Occupy, please call the Mayor and City Council members now. Here is a link to their contact information.

BY CONSENSUS OF THE OCCUPY TUCSON GENERAL ASSEMBLY, DECEMBER 18 2011:

Mr. Rankin,

The Occupy Tucson legal team has had an opportunity to review the City’s plea offer with some, but not all, of the Occupy Tucson defendants. [1] The majority of them have rejected the plea upon our advice, and have asked us to present a counter-offer.

Before we get to details, however, we’d like to say a few words about the unique situation facing both the City and the Occupy Tucson movement. Our clients are not the typical “vagrants” the underlying ordinance was intended to address. They have intentionally violated the applicable ordinance(s) in an earnest and righteous exercise of their First Amendment rights. They are extremely principled and dedicated to the ideals of the Occupy movement, as evidenced by the many who have volunteered night after night to receive a citation (some of whom have even go so far as to drive to the park at “ticket time” each night to receive a citation before returning home). With few exceptions, our clients have chosen to stand together as a group in solidarity and as members of a political association.

Our clients represent a true cross section of Americans – homeowners and the homeless (either recently due to foreclosure or chronic), employed and unemployed, highly educated and less so: doctors, short order cooks, grandmothers from Green Valley, students from the UA, Democrats, Republicans – you get the point. Few of them knew each other prior to the first day of the Occupation on October 15th, yet found themselves inextricably drawn to the Occupy Wall Street movement which seemed a beacon of hope for the 99% of Americans affected by an economic crisis brought on by corporate greed and government corruption that had trickled down over the last several years to affect all but the wealthy 1%.

The people of Occupy Tucson found it necessary to make a courageous statement by occupying government land vis a vis camping statement in public parks in a pure expression of free speech. It was imperative to them to exercise their constitutional rights 24 hours a day. Because there is no provision within the City code to allow its residents to do so, the City chose to penalize its citizens by imposing criminal citations carrying maximum penalties of $1,000 and six months in jail. While certainly justified by the laws on the books, the City failed and made a dishonorable choice.

We would like to propose what we believe is a win-win situation. For the purpose of clarity, however, be advised that the Occupy Tucson legal team does not represent every single person who identifies as an Occupy Tucson member. We have no control over splinter groups or rogue individuals who adamantly disregard our legal advice. This is the nature of the beast, and must be taken into account as a reality by which we are all limited to a certain degree. We can, however, provide a roster of those people who are either on board with being represented as part of a group or are interested in accepting the existing plea in whole or in part.We will do our best to insure that the majority of people with citations will accept a plea, and will withdraw from the cases of those people not on the roster because they are not acting in a manner consistent with their best interest.

Our counter proposal is as follows.

1. Our clients will agree to:
A. Decampment of Viente de Agosto[2] park by a date certain if the following conditions can be met. Decampment is meant to include removal of all semi-permanent structures including tents, camping equipment, tables, chairs, IT equipment, remaining kitchen items (the kitchen was voluntarily removed two weeks ago).
B. Our clients will agree not to “re-occupy” Viente de Agosto park, Armory Park or the main library grounds for a period of one (1) year.
C. We shall suspend the federal civil rights lawsuit currently pending in U. S. District Court, Occupy Tucson v. City of Tucson, cause number 4:11-CV-00699-TUC-CJK, for a period of one (1) year at which time it shall be dismissed with prejudice.
D. We shall dismiss the special action in Pima County Superior Court, Occupy Tucson v. Riojas and State of Arizona, cause number C20118136.

5. In exchange, the City shall:
A. Dismiss all citations issued from October 15 to the present for violation of any park-after-hours ordinances including violations of Tucson City Code Sec. 21-3(7)(3), as well as “interfering with judicial order” violations resulting from said park-after-hours restrictions.
B. Will provide suitable office space in the downtown area for the purpose of Occupy Tucson headquarters, to be used for meetings, public interface including education, workshops and information, and offices. The space shall be for the period of one (1) year, free of charge, at street level, not less than 1,000 square feet, and shall include utilities, internet access and telephone.
C. Lastly, the City shall agree to coordinate efforts with Occupy Tucson to relocate each of the homeless-identified/SMI/substance abuse affected who currently camp at the park into appropriate social services.

For purposes of logistics, i.e., a timely decampment coordinated with moving into a new headquarters, we would accept a commitment from the City to work with OT to reach this goal.

In conclusion, we realize that this is not a standard plea offer, but neither is this a standard criminal prosecution. We are certain that despite the additions/changes from your original plea that it is in the best interest of both the City and Occupy Tucson to come to a mutual resolution of this situation. Our clients are not the only ones with a lot at stake if the prosecution continues. While you stated on Arizona Illustrated television show that the 700 citations were not a burden to your office or the Court, we think your statements were primarily for public consumption. We are both aware it will take considerable resources from both the prosecution and defense to merely review the deluge of disclosure that will be involved in a trial of thee charges. In addition, we cannot even estimate the expense in time and money of the number of police interviews that must be done before trial; suffice it to say that we would insist on interviewing all three officers the City felt obliged to put on each cited person (700 x 3 = 2,100 hours of police interviews). And lastly, we assume that even in groupings of defendants the actual trials in this case will be a logistical and resource nightmare; even so, many of our clients have indicated they would insist on individual trials. I am positive that the price of a one year lease on some modest store front office or commercial property would be far less costly to the City than having to produce police officers for interviews and trial testimony.

Of course there is also the added incentive of resolving this situation without the rancor, expense and additional litigation that will result from law enforcement action to end the Occupy Tucson camp. The City has been very reasonable and accommodating up to this point and we would certainly be willing to let the public know about how Tucson would be one of the few cities with an Occupy camp to resolve the situation in a principled and peaceful manner.

We are ready to move immediately. We await your response.

[1] Because our client roster exceeds 130 people, we are not able to contact all our clients easily. Sixty-one percent (61%) can be contacted instantly via email; the rest can only be contacted by phone and/or email.

[2] Any activity which may or may not occur at any other park including DeAnza is not under the control or supervision of Occupy Tucson proper. For instance, Occupy Public Lands is an autonomous offshoot and while we are supportive of their efforts and goals we are not representing anyone who may have or will receive a ticket at that location.

Sacred Datura grows in the wild. (Image Credit: Pamela Powers Hannley)

Is Pinal County becoming the new dust bowl? This past summer dry conditions, high winds, and a destroyed ecosystem created a series of perfect storms.

Dust storms of Biblical proportions formed in Pinal County’s scraped-clean, barren acreage, blew into Phoenix, and made national headlines when multiple haboobs engulfed millions of Phoenicians.

Subsequent dust storms created fatal driving conditions along Interstate 10 between Tucson and Phoenix. A series of dust storms caused multiple pileups on one October day– leaving one person dead, 15 injured, and more than 16 vehicles destroyed.

What is the state’s answer to this dangerous situation? Two days after that horrific October day on I-10, state officials shrugged their shoulders and blamed motorists for the accidents. From the Arizona Daily Star…

State officials say that motorists – not a lack of safeguards – are to blame for dust-related crashes such as the multi-vehicle wrecks on Interstate 10 on Tuesday.

And there are no plans for state agencies to collaborate on strategies to reduce collisions related to dust storms.
“Dust storms don’t kill people; highways don’t kill people. Drivers kill people,” said Bart Graves, a spokesman for the state Department of Public Safety. “They panic and they do the wrong thing and something bad happens…” [Note that state officials are using the same argument that they use to justify taking no action on gun control.]

In cases of unpredictable dust storms, Graves said, “there is virtually no way we can do that.”

Aloe vera grows wild and like datura is a plant that pollinators love. (Image credit: Pamela Powers Hannley)

The state is being lazy on the issue of dust storms, and I was glad to see Tucsonans calling them out in today’s Arizona Daily Star story about dust storms and hazardous driving on I-10.

Unfortunately, the article primarily focused on high-tech methods to predict dust storms and not on ways to prevent them.

I have lived in Arizona long enough to remember when there used to be vegetation along I-10. Leaving Tucson on the way to Phoenix, mature palo verde and mesquite trees lined either side of the freeway and filled the median for miles. This green belt was so beautiful– especially after a desert rain when the palo verdes were in bloom. Beyond the trees on either side was other desert vegetation like creosote and jojoba bushes, cacti, and yucca. On the way to Wilcox, mature ocotillo and wild flowers like Mexican sunflowers and sacred datura filled the median. In the spring, the view toward the Dragoons was a riot of color with miles of blooming fire-red ocotillos mixed with the yellow and white wild flowers. Along the sides of the freeway were more wild flowers, desert shrubs, cacti, and other native plants.

These hardy desert trees, shrubs, and wild flowers not only decorated the freeway and made the drive more pleasant; their roots held the soil.

Cacti and agaves will grow and multiply just about anywhere. (Image Credit: Pamela Powers Hannley)

I never knew why the plants and trees in the median were removed. One day the trees going west and the ocotillos going east were just gone. All that was left was dirt, rocks, scrub grass, and maybe an occasional wild flower.

Overgrazing, over cultivation, and over zealous (but uncompleted) development destroyed the ecosystem along the freeway. Vast stretches of dirt line I-10 between Tucson and Phoenix. It’s no wonder haboobs are whipped up and no wonder that Pinal County has air quality problems.

In addition to– or instead of– high-tech gadgetry to predict dust storms, Arizona should mount a freeway planting program. (After all, as the Star article points out, what are you going to do after you predict a major dust storm? Shut down the freeway? Halt commerce on the interstate because a computer model tells you to?) The median and the easement along the freeway should be replanted with desert trees, shrubs, and wild flowers. Other states have vegetation along their stretches of the interstate highways. We have dirt and, therefore, we have dust storms. Along I-10, on the way to Palm Springs, mature salt cedars line the freeway for miles and provide a buffer between the dry desert and drivers.

In addition to a state-sponsored replanting program, landowners who allow their acreage to sit uncultivated or undeveloped should be fined. They are creating a public health and public safety problems for the residents of Arizona; they should pay for remediation.

Another step the state can take is to make commuting between Tucson and Phoenix safer is to move forward on the I-10 corridor commuter train. Not safe to drive? Take the train.

Arizona’s state government should stop shirking its duty to protect the health and welfare of the citizenry… and start planting.

Marisa Muro of Occupy Tucson was taken into custody on Nov. 30, 2011. (Image Credit: Alex Maldonado)

As police and local governments begin major crackdowns across the US, the Tucson Police Department and Occupy Tucson continue their nightly dance of citations, arrests, and resistance at Veinte de Agosto Park downtown.

From Alex Maldonado, Occupy Tucson Peacekeeper and Veteran For Peace…

Tonight [Wednesday, Nov. 30], eight Tucson Police Department cruisers, one SUV and another unmarked SUV encircled Veinte de Agosto Park for the nightly issuing of citations for staying in the park after hours for Occupy Tucson.

As citations were being issued, Marisa Muro, peacefully refused her citation and was taken into custody without incident.  Muro is basically deaf with only 20% hearing in each ear.

Since Thanksgiving evening, nine occupiers have been taken into custody for refusing their citations.  Occupiers spend the night at the Pima County Adult Detention Center, have their arraignment hearing in the morning and are then released.

Tucson’s newly-elected Mayor Jonathan Rothschild will be sworn in next Monday, Dec. 5, 2011. Will the police change their tactics then? Only time will tell.