Gun rights and gun responsibility
by Hugh Holub on Jan. 10, 2011, under politicsI am guessing most Americans are appalled when they realize that a person of dubious sanity can walk into a gun store in Tucson and buy a Glock 19 and extended ammo clips so one can kill 6 people and wound 14 others…and still have enough ammo to kill another 30 or 60 people.
On top of that anyone can conceal such a weapon and go just about anywhere they want…except on a university campus (which some Arizona state legislatures want to allow).
OK..it is one thing to have the right to own a gun….but where does the right to own a gun run into the responsibility of actually buying and carrying weapons around?
To hear the Second Amendment folks argue…the more people carrying a gun the less likely a scene like what happened in Tucson would happen. Presumably, the argument goes, someone there at the grocery store could have pulled out his or her Glock 19 and shot Jared Loughner.
Let me ask each of you how many of you really think you’d know what to do if you were in a situation with a shooter like Loughner spraying a crowd with 9 mm bullets?
Would you really trust someone to know exactly what to do in a situation like that whose main claim to gun proficiency was their Second Amendment bumper sticker? I sincerely hope not.
Is the point of having the right to carry whatever weapon you want to buy really the right to be ready to go to the streets and fight off the UN take-over of America or some other nonsense spewed on the Web?
Is everyone just itching to be a modern Minuteman and defend our border or stop the left-wing takeover of the country?
I don’t see the Second Amendment advocates taking responsibility for arming the society… in fact they’ve done just the opposite when they got the training and licensing requirement voided for carrying a concealed weapon.
There is a lot of justification to requiring folks who want to walk around town with their gun to have some serious training about how and when to use that gun.
There is serious justification to trying to figure out how to keep guns out of the hands of crazy people…as well as street gangsters and others.
There is serious justification to asking just what kind of gun do you really need for home protection and safety?
It’s one thing to have the gun at home and quite another to go shopping packing your heat.
And I don’t really get why it is so important that everyone can buy a semi-automatic pistol. Does anyone hunt deer or coyotes with a Glock 19?
People are describing Arizona as Tombstone…the Wild West. One ought to remember that there was a very concerted effort to create a civil society with law enforcement so everyone in town wasn’t carrying a gun. Arizona grew and prospered in that civilized setting.
It should not surprise anyone that Sheriff Clarence Dupnik (as many law enforcement folks) question the situation where anyone can buy any kind of gun they want and carry it wherever they want in this state.
January 10th, 2011 on 4:06 pm
“There is a lot of justification to requiring folks who want to walk around town with their gun to have some serious training about how and when to use that gun.”
Mandatory K-12 firearms safety training in schools, that is the right thing to do for our children.
What are your thoughts?
January 10th, 2011 on 4:58 pm
Let me ask each of you how many of you really think you’d know what to do if you were in a situation with a shooter like Loughner spraying a crowd with 9 mm bullets?
Well, if one was skilled with a firearm and carrying one at the time, you could certainly come up with a better plan than taking down the shooter with your bare hands after he’s emptied his gun and is trying to reload.
This tragedy is the very reason we need good citizens armed. Because the bad guys already are.
Let us pray for the recovery of the victims.
January 10th, 2011 on 5:21 pm
What a bunch of B.S.
I’m a left winger, a glock 19 owner, and if I was there I would have shot Loughner. I have a glock 19 to protect myslef, not to hunt. I have the right to protect myself especially from idiots like this.
January 10th, 2011 on 6:00 pm
“And I don’t really get why it is so important that everyone can buy a semi-automatic pistol. Does anyone hunt deer or coyotes with a Glock 19?”
Hugh, the Second Amendment which affirms our right to own arms has nothing to do with hunting deer or coyotes.
January 10th, 2011 on 6:26 pm
Let me then ask you, how about if I accidently bump into a right-wing religious nut carrying a gun and wearing a cowboy hat who just came to the political rally from a bar. (Anything can happen). I don’t know if you were born an idiot, raised as an idiot, or became a idiot because of the right wing rhetoric you hear from morons on T.V; and the radio every day, but listen, it’s what they do best. Incite the masses just as Hitlerdid !
January 11th, 2011 on 3:12 am
Hmmm…Hitler was a NATIONAL SOCIALIST — he was not a Bible-reading Christian. Your logic is faulty and your hatred against Christians is obvious.
Why don’t you LOOK at the people who have assassinated or attempted to assassinate political figures. The OVERWHELMING MAJORITY were Socialists…Communists…in other words: LIBERAL.
Let’s look at the political leaders that committed MASS MURDER: Stalin, Hitler, Mao: they were COMMUNISTS…SOCIALISTS…in other words: LIBERAL.
The next time you post tripe, do some basic research.
January 11th, 2011 on 6:43 am
This is an interesting new twist from the right, this attempt at disassociation from fascism by redefining fascism so as to move it from the right side of the political spectrum over to the left. At the same time, they are conflating liberalism and socialism as one and the same. Interesting.
As I have already said, I am not optimistic that this tragedy will be the one to change the tone of discourse or provide common ground in this country.
January 11th, 2011 on 2:30 pm
I need to correct your assumption about moi ! ( You probably dislike the French ), I am a Christian,and not that it matters, however, my description of Christianity and what the good books says or means is different fron You…, the guy in the Tower(oral roberts), the preacher who wept and ask for forgiveness while committing adultry, (name, help me) the make-up queen and her husband (tammy Faye’s),I believe committed fraud, and the one who had homosexual tendicies while leading his flock … Are these the people who are suppose to be your Christian Leaders, NO THANKS; My point is….
if you sell a message someone will hear it, believe it, follow it….which inturn leads to disaster. And this is what the Right Wing Zealots do best !
January 10th, 2011 on 6:45 pm
It might have been nice if someone were able to stop this by shooting Mr. Loughner, but even when Hinckley tried to shoot Reagan with all those highly trained and well-armed bodyguards around, nobody shot at him. This is probably because in a crowd situation, they know that more bullets flying around is likely to result in more injury and death, not less.
The whole gun situation in the US is way beyond rational remedy anyway. It’s become an emotional issue not subject to rational argument.
January 10th, 2011 on 7:33 pm
I forgot to mention that I think Mr. Holub is raising a very relevant point here. We have an awful lot more people ranting about their rights than we have people aware of their responsibilities. Freedom and responsibility are really two sides to the same coin.
January 10th, 2011 on 8:04 pm
With all the chatter as to how a person with “dubious sanity” can purchase a firearm I must question why this person was still walking around. Mutiple interactions with the legal system. The PIMA COUNTY SHERRIFF’s delivering the letter demanding a mental evaluation. Yet no one followed through to see that actions were taken. No one willing to address the issues that had been screaming for action for years. PIMA County government in total needs to look in the mirror and ask the question. Had actions been take, he would have been denied the purchase via the required ATF check. Had PIMA county followed through 6 people might be alive and a sick individual would be recieving treatment. Don’t look at the “right wing”, look in the mirror
January 10th, 2011 on 10:31 pm
“Had PIMA county followed through ”
That is why Dupnik said during the first press conference he was advised by lawyers not to discuss Laughner’s previous threats. Covering their asses.
January 10th, 2011 on 8:21 pm
From the NYtimes today…
“I have a Glock 9 millimeter, and I’m a pretty good shot.”
The statement, by Representative Gabrielle Giffords, was made in an interview last year with The New York Times, when tensions were running high in her district. The quip about her ability to defend herself speaks to the passionate gun culture in Arizona that crosses political lines and is notable for its fierceness, even in the West.
Indeed, the federal judge who was killed on Saturday in the shootings here, John M. Roll, had his wife and many people who worked with him take lessons at Marksman Pistol Institute, an indoor range downtown. One of the doctors who operated on Ms. Giffords after the shooting rampage was a member at Pima Pistol Club, an outdoor range where homeland security and local law enforcement were practicing on Monday. “
January 10th, 2011 on 8:40 pm
one thing is for sure this nut it’s wearing pink underwear…..
January 10th, 2011 on 8:55 pm
all of us have the power ,, the power of words need tu be responsable to what we say,there are many people with weak minds ,look at the nazis one stupid made a lot of people stupid.
January 10th, 2011 on 9:09 pm
This is taken from Fort Buckley. I’m not able to comment on that blog myself, but I found this interesting:
Im from Australia and quite frankly you right-wing nutjobs make America look like a complete looney bin.
If you think it looks like a looney bin from way over there, I can tell you that the view from here right now is even more depressing.
January 10th, 2011 on 10:32 pm
Your posts just proves there are ignorant people in Australia. Thanks.
January 11th, 2011 on 6:59 am
As regards the post from Australia, a common reply seems to be, “We’re just fine, it’s you that’s all screwed up”. What’s funny is that this is probably exactly how Jared Loughner feels; that he has a firm grip on reality and can’t understand why the rest of us don’t see things as clearly as he does.
January 12th, 2011 on 12:09 am
The buck for this shooting stops squarely on Dubniks desk for failure to act on the complaints of death threats by the shooter and for failure to provide security for a public official at a public event. Had he acted the background check would have prevented the purchase of the gun.
I’d say Dubnik understands this is blood on his hands and touched off the political firestorm in an attempt to obscure the facts in this case.
Dubnik needs to man up, take responsibility and resign in disgrace. He failed miserably at his job and people depending on his office died!
January 11th, 2011 on 12:08 am
The guns laws have nothing to do with this tragedy. Anyone can just as easily purchase those kind of weapons off the street. In some cases for less. And to take away the right for law abiding citizens to carry weapons is ridiculous. But i do agree that we must be more responsible with our weapons so i say this: Make it mandatory for AZ high school students to take weapons saftey, handling, marksmanship, and use of deadly force training. Not turn them into militia but just give them some education on the weapons.
January 11th, 2011 on 3:15 am
By the way — there are people posting anti-First Amendment and anti-Second Amendment comments who are PAID by the DNC and by the Brady anti-gun lobby to post garbage. I am seeing these comments being posted here — and it would not surprise me if these people are PAID SHILLS.
January 11th, 2011 on 6:45 am
…there are people posting anti-First Amendment and anti-Second Amendment comments who are PAID by the DNC…
It’s all one big conspiracy, isn’t it?
January 11th, 2011 on 3:21 am
How often have you witnessed a “tea partier,” an anti-government activist or a conservative engage in any of the following behaviors, all of which are confirmed to have been conducted by Loughner.
- Burning the American flag
- Being a “left-winger” and a “liberal”
- Smoking pot
- Having long hair
- Dressing up as the grim reaper
- Dabbling in the occult by worshipping a replica of a human skull
- Expressing the desire to be a woman
- Describing Karl Marx’s Communist Manifesto as a favorite book
Does it sound like Jared Lee Loughner was a right-wing conservative, as the liberal smear machine is attempting to claim?
Despite the fact that Loughner’s former classmate described him as “quite liberal” and “left wing,” the New York Times, Washington Post, along with a host of statist blogs like Huffington Post and the Daily Kos, were beating the drum for so-called right-wingers (opponents of Obamacare or big government) to be politically silenced in the name of “toning down the rhetoric”.
January 11th, 2011 on 3:22 am
This information comes from the Drudgereport and Infowars.com
January 11th, 2011 on 6:56 am
I’d be kinder to liberals, were I you. They are not asking for you to be ‘politically silenced’. No, they are asking people to eliminate the violent imagery from the debate. Liberals, being who they are, still believe in hearing the conservative POV and still believe in ‘the debate’.
On this topic, it has been a long time since having long hair and smoking pot were confined to liberals. Gender-identity issues and having a skull are not behaviors that have ever defined liberalism.
January 11th, 2011 on 6:39 am
Your sheriff: Dupnik the Sputnik, the dude is from outer space. To take advantage of this situation to push his political agenda is absolutely sickening.
January 11th, 2011 on 7:02 am
“Push his political agenda”? Hogwash.
I love Dupnik’s bravery for telling it like it is. The racists laws, fear-mongering rhetoric, and outright lies by Governor Jan “beheadings-in-the-desert” Brewer and State Senator Russell “I-hate-anchor-babies” Pearce have created an environment of hatred in our state.
Great article, Hugh. Just because we have the right to own guns doesn’t mean it’s a good idea to carry one around all the time. My Dad liked to hunt. He had 3 guns– an antique musket and 2 hunting rifles– all stored unloaded.
January 11th, 2011 on 8:04 am
I grew up with guns and have a rifle now. I also worked on a special law enforcement unit in the field and carried a weapon. Ido have training most folks do not . As a prosecutor I’ve had my share of death threats from “credible” shooters. And I’ve been involved in cases about what is or is not a justified shooting.
The point is about responsibility and I do not see a lot of the gun rights advocates accepting the responsibility and agreeing that folks who carry in urban areas ought to have a lot more training than they get now (which is zip).
I also don’t agree with the concept that the best way to deal with armed criminals is to arm everyone else…more effort is needed to disarm the street gangs and thugs.
And it should not be forgotten that a lot of the weapony arming the Mexican drug cartels is sold in Arizona and Texas….
In the name of protectng grandma’s right to have a Glock 19 a lot of other problems are created.
January 11th, 2011 on 8:34 am
Hugh,
Are you willing to have State mandate firearms safety training in the K-12 program?
And I will tell you from experience, that if LEO firearms training standards is the bar you want folks to meet, you have set your sights very low.
January 11th, 2011 on 2:32 pm
See my commentary “we have met the enemy and he is us”.
January 11th, 2011 on 10:49 am
“I also don’t agree with the concept that the best way to deal with armed criminals is to arm everyone else…more effort is needed to disarm the street gangs and thugs.”
It would be nice if street gangs and thugs could be disarmed. Unfortunately that is nearly impossible to do without disarming the entire population. Criminals will find a way to obtain the items they want, and guns are certainly no exception. I think it would be extremely irresponsible to start reigning in the 2nd Amendment and making it harder for decent people to obtain guns to protect themselves. Without exception I firmly believe that everyone has the right to posess a gun in their home.
That being said, I agree that it is a good idea to pass some legislation which requires people who want to carry in an urban area to obtain an acceptable level of firearms safety and marksmanship training. As a handgun owner (who doesnt often carry in public) I have taken several 2-day safety and marksmanship courses at various institutions in order to learn and practice the responsibilites of a gun owner. Responsible gun ownership really boils down to the individual. Untrained people in posession of powerful firearms will usually result in more bad happening than good.
January 11th, 2011 on 10:48 am
Dupnik was elected to be Pima County Sheriff, not legislator-in-chief. Tell him to shut up and do his job.
January 11th, 2011 on 7:33 am
THE CITIZEN USED TO BE A GOOD PAPER. WHAT HAPPENED ? DUBNIC SHOULD BE SENT OUT TO PASTURE WITH THE REST OF THE JACK ASSES
January 11th, 2011 on 8:05 am
The comments on this blog (and others) are THE PROBLEM with America today. What made our system work was the fact that we could disagree with each other and still be civil. We ARE becoming extremists, both the left and the right!
For anyone to try to tie the left or right to this tragedy is wrong. To seek political benefit from this is wrong. The guy is a nut job who planned his demented act in advance. The tools he used are irrelevant!
January 11th, 2011 on 9:42 am
There will always be nutcases. Nutcases will always do stupid violent things. You can’t ban guns. It doesn’t work in Mexico, where 90% of the guns come from other countrys ont he black market (only 90% of the other 10% come from here).
Each and every citizen in the state of AZ has the right to carry a firearm for self defense. Many people chose not to do so on that Saturday. Many of them went their whole lives without the need for one but on that one day they needed one. There weer other people in the area with a firearm, and even though they were able to react a lot faster than the police the situation was already over with. When it comes down to it, only YOU are responsibile for your own safety. No matter what kind of a police state you want it will only make it more dangerous. If you value your live you will arm yourself and learn how to use it.
January 11th, 2011 on 10:01 am
I advocate firearms training for gun owners just as strongly as I encourage voters to educate themselves on the facts before casting a vote.
I also do not support mandatory training requirements for firearms purchase or ownership, just as I do not support reading requirements before one can vote.
January 11th, 2011 on 10:12 am
For all of those who want to ban guns, lets see if this works.
Do spoons and forks make people fat or is it the person who is over eating that makes themselfs fat? Would requiring smaller spoons and forks fix the problem? Would making “Spoon/Fork free zones” help so people can’t eat anywhere they want to?
No of course not. That would be rediculous. Any time you make a gun free zone a nutcase will still take a gun. Ban guns and it will just become a problem of knifes and baseball bats (look at England, crime rate skyrocketed once they banned firearms). Do you really think if we had not passed the Consitutional Carry bill that this nut wouldnt have shot Gabby? Was it the misdermeanor charge of carrying a conealed weapon that kept him from doing it before, not the possiblity of the death pentalty for a murder? Hell no! So lets knock off the stupidity. If you want to ban guns then you love a policy state and you hate liberty. It’s really that simple.
January 11th, 2011 on 11:23 am
>Make it mandatory for AZ high school students to take weapons saftey, handling, marksmanship, and use of deadly force training.
Perfect ! That’s just the kind of law we need to solidify AZ’s leadership as US wingnut capital :)
January 11th, 2011 on 12:57 pm
So you admit that those pushing gun control are not really concerned with safety?
Do you advocate teaching our children about safe sex or would you rather rely on preaching abstinance?
January 11th, 2011 on 1:44 pm
So you admit that those pushing gun control are not really concerned with safety?
No – the opposite.
Do you advocate teaching our children about safe sex or would you rather rely on preaching abstinance?
Actually I am not afraid of a society where people engage in sex. I don’t see a society where everyone is a gunslinger as admirable.
January 11th, 2011 on 3:57 pm
Neither sex nor guns are going away no matter how much you or others might wish.
So why not give our children the tools to act safely i?
I know why, the left is afraid that those children will be brought up to respect and handle firearms safely. And they know that many of them will continue to be responsible gun owners into adulthood, and adults can vote.
That is why those that would disarm us in the name of “safety” will not support teaching of firearms safety.
January 11th, 2011 on 4:34 pm
Neither sex nor guns are going away no matter how much you or others might wish.
There are plenty of places that are much safer than here yet no one is armed, or has firearms training. There is zero evidence that such training makes anyone safer.
January 11th, 2011 on 4:47 pm
Places with no violent crime and no guns at all?
Where is this utopia?
January 12th, 2011 on 8:00 am
Canada
January 12th, 2011 on 8:31 am
Exactly
January 11th, 2011 on 11:54 am
How do you handle someone spraying a crowd with a 9mm?
Drop him with a .45.
January 11th, 2011 on 1:47 pm
How confident would you be in the crowed if there was an armed citizen shooting back at the suspect who probably fired no more than 10 rds his whole life? An armed citizen who couldn’t tell 10 yards from 25 yards? An armed citizen who just dropped $500 on a handgun and walks around with a “Dirty Harry” attitude who couldn’t hit the broad side of a barn at 5 yards? Yeah… I’m sure that makes you feel safe.
January 11th, 2011 on 3:49 pm
Entropy,
I see you support good firearms training that will improve the skills and mindset of gunowners in America.
I propose a tax credit for those that choose to seek quality training.
What say you?
January 11th, 2011 on 8:48 pm
What would constitute quality training, in your opinion? A government-certified agency? How do you certify that agency? I guess you’re for expanding government?
January 11th, 2011 on 9:30 pm
We could use the same organization that approves the classes that most POST boards approve.
January 11th, 2011 on 4:24 pm
From France,
The hate atmosphere created by loudmouths and extreme right tv channels refrain EU families to get involved in high school student exchanges . Who wants to send one of his children in a country devastated by such violence ? Tucson’s sheriff is right. He perfectly describe an horrendous situation.
January 12th, 2011 on 8:14 am
Dear France, it’s a shame that EU families don’t feel safe sending their children here. I can’t say that I blame you though. Maybe you can help by telling us where we can send our children to get them away from here?
January 11th, 2011 on 4:48 pm
I am reposting this here in hopes it does not have to pass a “moderation” test like some of the other threads….
Hugh….
Gun control is dead
“Let me add another dimension to the gun rights debate….the Second Amendment refers to a “well regulated militia”.”
Research the meaning of “regulated” in the vernacular of the time it was writtten, it likely does not mean what you think it means….
I say again, gun control is dead in this country, Cliintons so called “assault weapons” ban very likely put more of them in circulation then would otherwise be out there. It took over a year for gun sales and prices to settle down due to demand after Obama was elected…..folks feared he was a gun grabber..
Look at the news reports today of surging gun sales….
Gun control is dead
The democrat party as a whole knows that the issue is a loser for them, you will be hard pressed to find a politician in anywhere but the safest district that will even float the idea.
If you want SAFETY in relation to GUNS then get behind K-12 firearms safety training, that is if safety is really your goal….
Do it for the children…… si se puede
January 11th, 2011 on 5:33 pm
I am one of the elitist leftist liberals who wants to take your guns away. I have many friends here in western PA who hunt responsibly with their rifles, but I have never been able to comprehend why law-abiding citizens feel a need to own AK-47s and their like. So, get ready for a tepid fight, because the gun lobby (NRA) can beat anyone, ’cause they’ve got the weapons, and they’re the textbook definition of sociopaths (look it up if you can re-spell it)…
January 11th, 2011 on 8:57 pm
I vote for Pedro.
January 11th, 2011 on 7:06 pm
I live in the Missouri Ozarks high up on a ridge in the forest and I deer hunt. It is a silly question if I’d use a nine to hunt with. A .22 caliber will drop a deer. Ask any poacher. I live in the forest, but less than a mile from me, there was a home invasion with armed men and the victims weren’t gun owners, but they are now. I’m just a minor writer, but primarily in my retirement, I try to predict human behavior to stop crime. Especially violent crime. When I have had stalkers, the cops just told me that I’d probably have to protect myself and I’m a disabled veteran and my prescribed narcotics are worth money to thieves. We as a people can do something when we see strange behavior. We can report details, accumulate the evidence demonstrating a problem, the time and date, and maybe with repeated reports, the government will check it out. As you know yourself in Tucson, crime happens and it seems like the cops are never there. In all my years of journalism and preventative law enforcement of my own design, I’ve helped to indict lots and lots of people, caused trouble for people possibly becoming violent, but still people die. Army Intelligence told me three weeks ago that 70 percent of tips come from ordinary Americans reporting it to their local police department or DHS. Because I get involved, people say that I’m delusional. Nuts. And yeah, I’d go hunting with a 9mm, but why would I? So many more bullets can kill much more efficiently. I might note that two years ago, I submitted a report that there was a growing problem in Arizona that would ultimately lead to violence. Three weeks ago, I was told to focus on Missouri because they didn’t care what was going on in Arizona. I am a consultant and I work for free. So I kept researching and I was convinced that something was about to happen. Now there will be copycats and the problem isn’t ressolved. This isn’t about deer hunting or the 9mm. Trust me. There are people out there who have much worse and people see their behavior progressing and they need to report it.
January 11th, 2011 on 8:26 pm
We spend an enormous amount of time and money on threats. Because the “shoe bomber” tried to ignite an explosive on a plane, we now take the time to remove our shoes before being allowed to fly and pay hordes of security people trying to prevent that threat from ripening into reality. Another person seeking to harm us carried explosives up his ass, so we spend more time and and a heck of a lot of money on costly x-ray machines to respond to that kind of threat. Yet we’ve experienced literally hundreds of incidents in which over a thousand innocent Americans have been killed by fast-shooting guns since the Columbine shootings. Doesn’t this reality — death caused by these weapons of mass destruction — deserve at least as much consideration as those threats? (Wouldn’t President Reagan have surely died had John Hinkley, Jr. been armed with a glock pistol?)
January 11th, 2011 on 8:42 pm
wow.
Came to this site to get local perspective, and all I see are the comments of dozens of individuals who could, just as likely given the ample resources, be the next mass-victim shooter! Forget about the debate over 2nd amendment rights or evaluation of mental illness, or even your Bibles. Too much of what I’ve read here is paranoic, fearful ranting that if your community doesn’t ADD more weaponry to each citizen, then armed hoodlums and gang-bangers are gonna roam your streets, and rape your women. Clearly the sun has baked your collective brains into some kind of agave mush. I had previously reserved that judgement for your ridiculous embarrassment of a governor, but I can see clear to expand that now. How do you people sleep at night? oh, that’s right, with your .45 under your pillow.
One thing’s for sure… you truly reap what you sow.